Fog Light question.
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Originally Posted by vern' date='May 20 2005, 07:24 AM
[quote name='Rudy' date='May 19 2005, 08:57 PM']You forgot the exclamation point!? 
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cheers
vern
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[/quote]I was kidding, I can't tell if you are...
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Originally Posted by Rudy' date='May 20 2005, 09:31 AM
[quote name='vern' date='May 20 2005, 07:24 AM'][quote name='Rudy' date='May 19 2005, 08:57 PM']You forgot the exclamation point!?
[snapback]130906[/snapback]
cheers
vern
[snapback]131040[/snapback]
[/quote]I was kidding, I can't tell if you are...
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[/quote]I am also kidding.How could I not be with all the useful information you give to us on this site I wouldn't want to mess around with you.
cheers
vern
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Funny thing, I joined this board after what I have heard referred to several times as the "infamous" fog light thread. Well, after seeing this one, I decided to do a search for fog light so I could read the whole thing. Due to the number of results returned by the search, I came across the ICEMAN apology before the initial thread. After reading that, I didn't even look for the original thread, because it showed me what a classy guy he is and if you can believe it, made me proud to be a member of this board. What a great community this place is. 
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Originally Posted by John007' date='May 19 2005, 03:04 PM
Thanks everyone... Oh and I did a search and I didn't get to the full Iceman "blow up on the subject" I did get the jest' of it.... I didn't mean to upset the king of E60, I should have done a search on the "foglights" first 
? Sorry Iceman
? Sorry Iceman [snapback]130576[/snapback]
Originally Posted by JDN' date='May 19 2005, 05:38 PM
Ice must be seriously out of touch with the forum right now.? 
?
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Originally Posted by Iceman' date='May 22 2005, 04:05 PM
[quote name='JDN' date='May 19 2005, 05:38 PM']Ice must be seriously out of touch with the forum right now.? ?
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[/quote]Holy Moly, Ice.
Really sorry about that. Was this related to ice hockey or NFL type stuff?
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Originally Posted by JDN' date='May 23 2005, 03:29 AM
Holy Moly, Ice.? ? Really sorry about that. Was this related to ice hockey or NFL type stuff?
? Really sorry about that. Was this related to ice hockey or NFL type stuff?[snapback]132061[/snapback]
During work on the tow truck.
No biggie, happened about twenty times in my life allready... Just painfull...
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I just want to take this opportunity to regurgitate a couple of my posts on this topic:
-----
This is a little off-topic, but since the question of fog lights came up again, I'll weigh in:
Yes, the US has never specified rear fog lights, though some vehicles do come with them in the US - some on one side only, some on both sides. It's a great idea in heavy fog, heavy rain, or other low visibility conditions.
With regard to front-facing fog lights: some states have in the past, and currently do have, regulations regarding when and how "fog", "driving", offroad, or other front facing lamps may be used on a vehicle. Most jurisdictions consider any white/clear front-facing lamp at a particular height, of a particular luminance, and of a particular illumination pattern to be legally acceptable under any circumstances.
Since the other fog light thread, and after several other heated fog light discussions over the years in other forums and on USENET, I've paid close attention to "fog lights" on vehicles. I must strongly disagree that properly configured and aimed fog lights are unsafe for other drivers. On almost every vehicle I examine, the fog lights appear no brighter or more intense than the headlamps, with very, very few exceptions (usually Pontiac vehicles, or vehicles set higher off the ground). With BMWs specifically, I fail to see how anyone can argue that the fog lights are significantly brighter than the headlights, in the context of appearance to other drivers on the road, or, brighter to the point where they would be uncomfortable for other drivers.
There is a very arrogant attitude among some people that if you drive with the "fog" lights on when there is no fog, that somehow means you're unsafe, ignorant, or trying to look "cool", when the people who are really "in the know" think that it's "uncool". This is all ridiculous. I quite enjoy the light that is cast by foglights to the SIDES of the vehicle and down directly in front of the vehicle, even in clear conditions. In fact, the very beam pattern of foglights - further DOWN than headlamps, having a shorter reach than headlamps, and a lower angle than headlamps - alone in itself proves that they are not a danger or safety hazard to approaching drivers. A properly aimed and configured fog lamp with the correct wattage bulb will NOT be "too bright", and anyone who says that fog lights on another vehicle were so bright that it caused them to get into an accident is, quite frankly, lying through their teeth OR did not witness normal and/or properly configured fog lamps.
In jurisdictions where it is LEGAL to use "fog lamps", there is NOTHING WRONG with using fog lamps even in clear driving conditions:
- They cast more light directly in front of the vehicle
- They cast more light to the sides of the vehicle, e.g., shoulders/curbs and lane markings
- They DO NOT and SHOULD NOT appear brighter or more luminous than headlamps to approaching drivers
That said, SOME vehicles have fog lamps that do not meet the above requirements, and are designed, in fact, more like auxiliary driving lamps than fog lamps, casting a long and narrow beam, and, if improperly aimed, have the potential to have a blinding glare effect on oncoming drivers. Note that I DO NOT condone using any lamps in such a way as to pose any safety hazard to either the driver, or other vehicles on the road, but properly configured fog lamps do not fall into this category, especially every OEM lamp I've seen on every BMW I've ever seen at night.
-----
I do not drive routinely with the fog lights on. However, when I am on a remote road or two lane country roads where there is no street lighting, I do use them, because I find it illuminates the lane markings much more to my liking than the headlights alone. For me, there is a qualitative difference in near-vehicle and side-vehicle visibility with the fog lights turned on. In the city and around town, they are indeed completely and utterly unnecessary.
They won't help you avoid any collisions; they're aimed at such a low angle that, as you say, you may only see the rabbit moments before it's under your front tire.
Additionally, drivers should use the same mechanisms for avoiding glare (i.e., not staring at or around the lamps of oncoming cars) under all conditions.
I have no problem believing that people claim fog lights "caused" an accident. But a properly aimed fog lamp that meets US DOT requirements for beam characteristics, luminance, angles, etc., should and in fact does not cause additional glare for oncoming drivers. Note that I am only speaking for US law, and many US vehicles (as I said, GM (usually Pontiac) and some DaimlerChrysler products) do have annoyingly bright fog lamps. I would urge you to examine the light patterns of E60 (or E39 and E34, for that matter) fog lights from the perspective of an oncoming driver. In my own tests, I find nothing that would lead me to believe that the fog lights should cause any undue glare, stress, or annoyance to an oncoming driver (except, perhaps, to someone who is irked to no end by me having fog lights on ;-) ).
On the other hand, you can make claims about accident statistics caused by headlamps, or merely by another vehicle being present. It's all about maximizing safety without decreasing utility (too much).
That said, I don't think this should be a such a religious issue. If it is legal for someone to drive with properly aimed fog lights on in a particular jurisdiction, it's really no one's business to tell them that it's "stupid", or that they're ignorant for doing it, or that they're doing it to "look cool" when it really doesn't. The legality argument is critical and central to my point: there is a body of sophisticated traffic law in the US and in the US states, much of which deals with lighting. Some vehicles are more troublesome than others; e.g., even the standard headlamps on some SUVs. Should that vehicle, then, only be allowed daytime use?
I think this is one of those things people simply won't agree on. I have no problems with people operating vehicles within the bounds of the law in their respective countries. There's a good number of people who think that you're a "poser" if you add angel eyes to a pre-2001 E39 (as I did). Why? Why is it ok to have them on a 2001+ E39, but not on a >2001? Then again, some people think it's cool to have blue or green front and rear turn signals, or take a 525 and put fake M5 badges on the back of it. Now, some might say that a fake M5 badge isn't a safety issue. No, it's not. Just a taste issue. Blue turn signals? Illegal, and now we're getting into shaky safety territory. Using properly aimed clear/white front-facing lights that are legal in your jurisdiction for on-road use? I'm sorry, but I just can't see any problem with that.
But I think we can agree to disagree. :-)
-----
This is a little off-topic, but since the question of fog lights came up again, I'll weigh in:
Yes, the US has never specified rear fog lights, though some vehicles do come with them in the US - some on one side only, some on both sides. It's a great idea in heavy fog, heavy rain, or other low visibility conditions.
With regard to front-facing fog lights: some states have in the past, and currently do have, regulations regarding when and how "fog", "driving", offroad, or other front facing lamps may be used on a vehicle. Most jurisdictions consider any white/clear front-facing lamp at a particular height, of a particular luminance, and of a particular illumination pattern to be legally acceptable under any circumstances.
Since the other fog light thread, and after several other heated fog light discussions over the years in other forums and on USENET, I've paid close attention to "fog lights" on vehicles. I must strongly disagree that properly configured and aimed fog lights are unsafe for other drivers. On almost every vehicle I examine, the fog lights appear no brighter or more intense than the headlamps, with very, very few exceptions (usually Pontiac vehicles, or vehicles set higher off the ground). With BMWs specifically, I fail to see how anyone can argue that the fog lights are significantly brighter than the headlights, in the context of appearance to other drivers on the road, or, brighter to the point where they would be uncomfortable for other drivers.
There is a very arrogant attitude among some people that if you drive with the "fog" lights on when there is no fog, that somehow means you're unsafe, ignorant, or trying to look "cool", when the people who are really "in the know" think that it's "uncool". This is all ridiculous. I quite enjoy the light that is cast by foglights to the SIDES of the vehicle and down directly in front of the vehicle, even in clear conditions. In fact, the very beam pattern of foglights - further DOWN than headlamps, having a shorter reach than headlamps, and a lower angle than headlamps - alone in itself proves that they are not a danger or safety hazard to approaching drivers. A properly aimed and configured fog lamp with the correct wattage bulb will NOT be "too bright", and anyone who says that fog lights on another vehicle were so bright that it caused them to get into an accident is, quite frankly, lying through their teeth OR did not witness normal and/or properly configured fog lamps.
In jurisdictions where it is LEGAL to use "fog lamps", there is NOTHING WRONG with using fog lamps even in clear driving conditions:
- They cast more light directly in front of the vehicle
- They cast more light to the sides of the vehicle, e.g., shoulders/curbs and lane markings
- They DO NOT and SHOULD NOT appear brighter or more luminous than headlamps to approaching drivers
That said, SOME vehicles have fog lamps that do not meet the above requirements, and are designed, in fact, more like auxiliary driving lamps than fog lamps, casting a long and narrow beam, and, if improperly aimed, have the potential to have a blinding glare effect on oncoming drivers. Note that I DO NOT condone using any lamps in such a way as to pose any safety hazard to either the driver, or other vehicles on the road, but properly configured fog lamps do not fall into this category, especially every OEM lamp I've seen on every BMW I've ever seen at night.
-----
I do not drive routinely with the fog lights on. However, when I am on a remote road or two lane country roads where there is no street lighting, I do use them, because I find it illuminates the lane markings much more to my liking than the headlights alone. For me, there is a qualitative difference in near-vehicle and side-vehicle visibility with the fog lights turned on. In the city and around town, they are indeed completely and utterly unnecessary.
They won't help you avoid any collisions; they're aimed at such a low angle that, as you say, you may only see the rabbit moments before it's under your front tire.
Additionally, drivers should use the same mechanisms for avoiding glare (i.e., not staring at or around the lamps of oncoming cars) under all conditions.
I have no problem believing that people claim fog lights "caused" an accident. But a properly aimed fog lamp that meets US DOT requirements for beam characteristics, luminance, angles, etc., should and in fact does not cause additional glare for oncoming drivers. Note that I am only speaking for US law, and many US vehicles (as I said, GM (usually Pontiac) and some DaimlerChrysler products) do have annoyingly bright fog lamps. I would urge you to examine the light patterns of E60 (or E39 and E34, for that matter) fog lights from the perspective of an oncoming driver. In my own tests, I find nothing that would lead me to believe that the fog lights should cause any undue glare, stress, or annoyance to an oncoming driver (except, perhaps, to someone who is irked to no end by me having fog lights on ;-) ).
On the other hand, you can make claims about accident statistics caused by headlamps, or merely by another vehicle being present. It's all about maximizing safety without decreasing utility (too much).
That said, I don't think this should be a such a religious issue. If it is legal for someone to drive with properly aimed fog lights on in a particular jurisdiction, it's really no one's business to tell them that it's "stupid", or that they're ignorant for doing it, or that they're doing it to "look cool" when it really doesn't. The legality argument is critical and central to my point: there is a body of sophisticated traffic law in the US and in the US states, much of which deals with lighting. Some vehicles are more troublesome than others; e.g., even the standard headlamps on some SUVs. Should that vehicle, then, only be allowed daytime use?
I think this is one of those things people simply won't agree on. I have no problems with people operating vehicles within the bounds of the law in their respective countries. There's a good number of people who think that you're a "poser" if you add angel eyes to a pre-2001 E39 (as I did). Why? Why is it ok to have them on a 2001+ E39, but not on a >2001? Then again, some people think it's cool to have blue or green front and rear turn signals, or take a 525 and put fake M5 badges on the back of it. Now, some might say that a fake M5 badge isn't a safety issue. No, it's not. Just a taste issue. Blue turn signals? Illegal, and now we're getting into shaky safety territory. Using properly aimed clear/white front-facing lights that are legal in your jurisdiction for on-road use? I'm sorry, but I just can't see any problem with that.
But I think we can agree to disagree. :-)
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Originally Posted by das' date='May 28 2005, 06:00 PM
But I think we can agree to disagree. :-)
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You simply forget, that the light bulb itself is not the problem. The glare is there wehn the road is wet. I don't have a problem seeing the road when I drive, since I never look into the lights of oncoming traffic. It's even no problem at all to drive and see the road when the oncoming driver has the high beams on.
There are ppl out there that don't see as good as you and me, there are also ppl who look right into the lights of oncoming traffic for some unknown reason.
Just last night I was driving my tow truck through the mountains and an oncoming car had the foglights on. The street was wet and even in my tow truck, sitting high above the road, it WAS annoying. Not that it caused any trouble for me.
Also I really don't see the point of driving with them on. What exactly are you looking for right in front of your car? You shouldn't look there. It doesn't help you driving safer or seeing better.
Having said that, I think the only reason for someone to have them on without fog is the look of it. And since there are some ppl out there who get distracted, isn't it arrogant?
Anyways, everybody has his own mind.
IMHO it should be ILLEGAL EVERYWHERE and ppl who drive with them on when it's not necessary but "legal" ARE arrogant/ignorant and just try to look cool.
