4WD trends
12-05-2005, 02:43 PM
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I think AWD is a very nice option for people living in snowy areas, it gives better traction controls especially in icy condition.
For people living in warmer area, AWD is somehow a waste.
For people living in warmer area, AWD is somehow a waste.
12-05-2005, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Knubblo' post='207517' date='Dec 5 2005, 12:34 PM
Today the global car industry estimate approx 12-13% of the car sales to be cars with 4WD. 15 years ago this number was less than 2%. A couple of years ago BMW did not even offer 4WD for their 5-series but times have changed along with new market demands and competition. Before the new cost/efficient solutions 4WD was considered an unnecessary option mostly because of price. With cost going down fast 4WD makes more and more sense for everybody.
The major reasons for an increased share of 4WD vs 2WD are:
1) Improved technology and durability
2) Less cost per unit
3) A increased consumer demand
4) A big improvement in driving safety
5) etc.
15 years from now it is probably true to estimate the 4WD share to be 80% leaving only small city cars run on 2WD.
So today it is becoming more and more relevant to ask yourself why you should NOT chose 4WD for your new car. A few suggestions might apply but they are being less important as time goes by.
1) Increased fuel consumption
2) Increased service and maintenance cost
3) Design issues (ride height etc.)
4) Lack of that slip'n'slidin' 2WD handling that some of the consumers wants
This discussion is by the way pretty similar to the discussion that arised some 30 years ago when the first ABS systems were introduced. Today ABS is not an option to choose. You assume it to be installed by default.
Do I have a 4WD, yes of course
Comments?
/Knubblo
The major reasons for an increased share of 4WD vs 2WD are:
1) Improved technology and durability
2) Less cost per unit
3) A increased consumer demand
4) A big improvement in driving safety
5) etc.
15 years from now it is probably true to estimate the 4WD share to be 80% leaving only small city cars run on 2WD.
So today it is becoming more and more relevant to ask yourself why you should NOT chose 4WD for your new car. A few suggestions might apply but they are being less important as time goes by.
1) Increased fuel consumption
2) Increased service and maintenance cost
3) Design issues (ride height etc.)
4) Lack of that slip'n'slidin' 2WD handling that some of the consumers wants
This discussion is by the way pretty similar to the discussion that arised some 30 years ago when the first ABS systems were introduced. Today ABS is not an option to choose. You assume it to be installed by default.
Do I have a 4WD, yes of course
Comments?
/Knubblo
Take for instance the 530xi v. 530i. Has anyone (BMW or otherwise) actually claimed that the xi version is safer than its 2WD brethren?
[/quote]
Not necessarily. Proper tires (e.g. snow tires) make a huge difference when driving in snow or inclement weather.
4WD is really useful when it comes to pulling (or pushing), or using your vehicle for all-terrain purposes.
I'm no expert on the issue, but I really do not believe that 4WD makes the car safer on slick or icy conditions.
For me, 4WD is a technical feature -- not necessarily a safety feature.
12-05-2005, 03:07 PM
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4) Bollo*ks. Many 4wd's have a higher centre (center) of gravity making them less stable. The benefits of 4wd over decent 2wd are so marginal in the real world that most people would never experience the potential benefit it may hold.
[/quote]
AWD in the same car is clearly better for cornering in slippery conditions, be it heavy rain, ice or snow, all other things being equal. The snow belt in the USA is where the most AWD cars get sold. I've seen a lot of RWD cars slide out, particularly in snow that probably would not have if they were AWD. Of course the drivers should have known their RWD cars better too.
I wouldn't say AWD is a "big improvement" in driving safety but I would say it is an improvement.
Okay, I'll take the bait. *I* say a 530xi is safer than a 530i, all other things being equal (tires etc).
However, I couldn't agree more with someone's post earlier that said that driver education is a better safety improvement that any other car technology.
[/quote]
AWD in the same car is clearly better for cornering in slippery conditions, be it heavy rain, ice or snow, all other things being equal. The snow belt in the USA is where the most AWD cars get sold. I've seen a lot of RWD cars slide out, particularly in snow that probably would not have if they were AWD. Of course the drivers should have known their RWD cars better too.
I wouldn't say AWD is a "big improvement" in driving safety but I would say it is an improvement.
Originally Posted by ipse dixit' post='207572' date='Dec 5 2005, 06:15 PM
How do you figure that 4WD is actually safer vis-a-vis 2WD?
Take for instance the 530xi v. 530i. Has anyone (BMW or otherwise) actually claimed that the xi version is safer than its 2WD brethren?
Take for instance the 530xi v. 530i. Has anyone (BMW or otherwise) actually claimed that the xi version is safer than its 2WD brethren?
However, I couldn't agree more with someone's post earlier that said that driver education is a better safety improvement that any other car technology.
12-05-2005, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ipse dixit' post='207588' date='Dec 5 2005, 06:56 PM
Not necessarily. Proper tires (e.g. snow tires) make a huge difference when driving in snow or inclement weather.
4WD is really useful when it comes to pulling (or pushing), or using your vehicle for all-terrain purposes.
I'm no expert on the issue, but I really do not believe that 4WD makes the car safer on slick or icy conditions.
For me, 4WD is a technical feature -- not necessarily a safety feature.
4WD is really useful when it comes to pulling (or pushing), or using your vehicle for all-terrain purposes.
I'm no expert on the issue, but I really do not believe that 4WD makes the car safer on slick or icy conditions.
For me, 4WD is a technical feature -- not necessarily a safety feature.
I should have addressed the issue assuming snow tire, chains, etc. are not being used--i.e., the cars are as they come from the factory all-wheel or rear-wheel drive. What about under those conditions? What about in the rain? Would the probability of hydroplaning be reduced? Is stopping distance usually shorter for otherwise comparable all-wheel and rear-wheel vehicles?
12-05-2005, 03:40 PM
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"Safer" may apply to one condition over another. While accelerating up a hill in icy contions is a benefit with all wheel drive, that is about it.
Quicker, more responsive emergency handling and breaking distances relative to less weight and ride height of two wheel drive is "safer" in emergency situations. DTC/DSC has closed the gap as well in any case.
My take, AWD is a false sense of security for the average driver, who substitutes it for winter tires. Get going quicker, stop the same. I see them in the ditches and in other's bumpers all the time around here in winter.
Winter tires and wheels are significantly safer and cheaper (extends summer tire life) over a AWD with all seasons.
Quicker, more responsive emergency handling and breaking distances relative to less weight and ride height of two wheel drive is "safer" in emergency situations. DTC/DSC has closed the gap as well in any case.
My take, AWD is a false sense of security for the average driver, who substitutes it for winter tires. Get going quicker, stop the same. I see them in the ditches and in other's bumpers all the time around here in winter.
Winter tires and wheels are significantly safer and cheaper (extends summer tire life) over a AWD with all seasons.
12-05-2005, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jmatthe' post='207606' date='Dec 5 2005, 07:40 PM
"Safer" may apply to one condition over another. While accelerating up a hill in icy contions is a benefit with all wheel drive, that is about it.
Quicker, more responsive emergency handling and breaking distances relative to less weight and ride height of two wheel drive is "safer" in emergency situations. DTC/DSC has closed the gap as well in any case.
My take, AWD is a false sense of security for the average driver, who substitutes it for winter tires. Get going quicker, stop the same. I see them in the ditches and in other's bumpers all the time around here in winter.
Winter tires and wheels are significantly safer and cheaper (extends summer tire life) over a AWD with all seasons.
Quicker, more responsive emergency handling and breaking distances relative to less weight and ride height of two wheel drive is "safer" in emergency situations. DTC/DSC has closed the gap as well in any case.
My take, AWD is a false sense of security for the average driver, who substitutes it for winter tires. Get going quicker, stop the same. I see them in the ditches and in other's bumpers all the time around here in winter.
Winter tires and wheels are significantly safer and cheaper (extends summer tire life) over a AWD with all seasons.
12-05-2005, 04:40 PM
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2002 330xi Black, Black, Premium, Cold, Premium Sound. (Sold)
1997 540i (sold)
1985 635i Euro (sold to family)
1985 535i (sold)
All things being equal, you should get a truck. Off roading in a 5 series?
Don't think so idiot.
Don't think so idiot.
12-05-2005, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jmatthe' post='207640' date='Dec 5 2005, 08:40 PM
All things being equal, you should get a truck. Off roading in a 5 series?
Don't think so idiot.
Don't think so idiot.
As for the "idiot" part, cardinal rules of posting are be polite, don't flame, and don't insult others. I, for one, would appreciate it you would follow those rules on these forums. Please note that I was not slamming you in any way. I simply suggested a means of proceeding so that we would be talking comparables when trying to sort out safety-issue matters on all-wheel versus rear-wheel drive. In this regard, the safety issue extends far beyond just 5-Series cars. It extends to all sorts of road vehicles in all sorts of circumstances.
12-05-2005, 05:52 PM
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My Ride: 2005.5 545i, Silver Grey, Dakota Black, Anthracite, Premium, Cold, Sport, L7, Nav, Fold Down Seats, Sunshades, Sirius.
2006 330i, Silver, Black, Natural Poplar, Sport, 6 speed, Cold, Premium
2002 330xi Black, Black, Premium, Cold, Premium Sound. (Sold)
1997 540i (sold)
1985 635i Euro (sold to family)
1985 535i (sold)
OK, very sorry for the editorial, subjective, and not so in the spirit comment, but I think you missed my point as well.
Whatever the case, I am sure you will buy what is right for your driving conditons. Personally, I did not make the connection on the off roading analogy....
Jim
Whatever the case, I am sure you will buy what is right for your driving conditons. Personally, I did not make the connection on the off roading analogy....
Jim