We know BMW is listening to us,
04-14-2005, 04:31 AM
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Rudy,
I accept there are integration issues but these are one off costs for the manufacturer during the R&D phase of a new model programme. Bearing in mind that the i-drive monitor is fitted to every E60, I don't believe for one minute that BMW do not make a huge mark up on the nav systems. I can tell you for a fact that the system used by BMW is the same one used by Porsche and I think the mananufacturer is a company called nav-teq if my memory is correct so the only integration required is via the i-drive monitor and that is just like adding a new programme to a windows pc.
Manufacturers like Garmin also have higher distribution costs for their units as they have to ship them out to every retailer. BMW are delivering the car anyway whether it is fitted with nav or not so there is no extra delivery costs to them. I don't think BMW have the monopoly on charging silly prices for nave either. Most manufacturers do it because the consumer is dumb enough to let them.
I'm not technically minded but it seems to me that if you can get an i-pod to intergrate with i-drive via an aux in socket it can't be impossible for someone like Garmin to produce a nav unit that sends it's visual output to a system like i-drive via an aux in adapter point.
I accept there are integration issues but these are one off costs for the manufacturer during the R&D phase of a new model programme. Bearing in mind that the i-drive monitor is fitted to every E60, I don't believe for one minute that BMW do not make a huge mark up on the nav systems. I can tell you for a fact that the system used by BMW is the same one used by Porsche and I think the mananufacturer is a company called nav-teq if my memory is correct so the only integration required is via the i-drive monitor and that is just like adding a new programme to a windows pc.
Manufacturers like Garmin also have higher distribution costs for their units as they have to ship them out to every retailer. BMW are delivering the car anyway whether it is fitted with nav or not so there is no extra delivery costs to them. I don't think BMW have the monopoly on charging silly prices for nave either. Most manufacturers do it because the consumer is dumb enough to let them.
I'm not technically minded but it seems to me that if you can get an i-pod to intergrate with i-drive via an aux in socket it can't be impossible for someone like Garmin to produce a nav unit that sends it's visual output to a system like i-drive via an aux in adapter point.
04-14-2005, 04:44 AM
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ISUK, you admit to not being "technically minded" and I believe that is why you assume that it's a simple task to integrate nav technology into our cars. It simply is not that easy. This site has plenty of information about the complexities of the M-ASK and CCC systems in our cars.
The iPod integration isn't a fully integrated solution either. You can't control the iPod, only the volume through the car's speakers. Sure, you can get an aftermarket adapter to allow video input to the screen but that's not what I call an "integrated" solution.
Also, NavTeQ is the company that produces the database that pretty much all nav systems use. They have nothing to do with the manufacturing of the hardware or software of the finished product. All they do is map the roads and provide the relevant points of interest, etc. -- it's up to the car manufacturer to determine how they use the data. That's why it's frustrating to see the Japanese manufacturers taking better advantage of the same database and giving many more useful nav features to customers of their brands.
I wouldn't consider the cost of R&D "one off" by any means. They are ongoing to be able to either match or stay ahead of competition. R&D costs are quite high so those costs need to be offset by a higher retail price. Obviously, there is always a mark-up on retail but it's probably not as high as you think.
Again, I think you'll see that all manufacturers that offer these types of integrated solutions will charge more than the aftermarket "street" versions of similar products. It's just the way the industry works...
The iPod integration isn't a fully integrated solution either. You can't control the iPod, only the volume through the car's speakers. Sure, you can get an aftermarket adapter to allow video input to the screen but that's not what I call an "integrated" solution.
Also, NavTeQ is the company that produces the database that pretty much all nav systems use. They have nothing to do with the manufacturing of the hardware or software of the finished product. All they do is map the roads and provide the relevant points of interest, etc. -- it's up to the car manufacturer to determine how they use the data. That's why it's frustrating to see the Japanese manufacturers taking better advantage of the same database and giving many more useful nav features to customers of their brands.
I wouldn't consider the cost of R&D "one off" by any means. They are ongoing to be able to either match or stay ahead of competition. R&D costs are quite high so those costs need to be offset by a higher retail price. Obviously, there is always a mark-up on retail but it's probably not as high as you think.
Again, I think you'll see that all manufacturers that offer these types of integrated solutions will charge more than the aftermarket "street" versions of similar products. It's just the way the industry works...
04-14-2005, 05:10 AM
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I would hope and expect that BMW and it's competitors are monitoring these types of forums in the same way as they are monitoring customer reaction and satisfaction via phone or mail surveys. To me the internet is just another medium with different characteristics, such as being a whole lot more open! Either way it is an absolute gift to the manufacturers in the same way it is to us.
On the other point I don't think complexity has much to do with final costs. If they did you wouldn't be able to pick up complex technology like inkjet printers and high tech gadgets for $100 or less. I just think it is about market maturity, eventual mass production and simple supply and demand. I tell you one thing though it appears to me that car manufacturers are really struggling with the unhealthy alliance of mechanical engineering and complex computer HW/SW systems for anything other than basic engine management systems, which are presumably mature. I'm still miffed by my car's lack of MP3 functionality and the fiasco of trying to understand whether my car would or wouldn't be able to do. I reckon this forum is better able to answer that than BMW and it's dealer network at the moment! I also can't beleive how long (days???) it appears to take to update the I-Drive software, that smacks of immature technology/poor process to me. That will change in time but it sure makes me feel like an "early adopter"!
On the other point I don't think complexity has much to do with final costs. If they did you wouldn't be able to pick up complex technology like inkjet printers and high tech gadgets for $100 or less. I just think it is about market maturity, eventual mass production and simple supply and demand. I tell you one thing though it appears to me that car manufacturers are really struggling with the unhealthy alliance of mechanical engineering and complex computer HW/SW systems for anything other than basic engine management systems, which are presumably mature. I'm still miffed by my car's lack of MP3 functionality and the fiasco of trying to understand whether my car would or wouldn't be able to do. I reckon this forum is better able to answer that than BMW and it's dealer network at the moment! I also can't beleive how long (days???) it appears to take to update the I-Drive software, that smacks of immature technology/poor process to me. That will change in time but it sure makes me feel like an "early adopter"!
04-14-2005, 05:58 AM
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Do you know how much an inkjet printer was when they first came out? I think you hit the nail on the head -- market maturity, competition, and mass production will certainly drive down the cost of manufacturing which will obviously reduce the retail costs, etc.
The problem is that since there are no real standards (other than BT) that apply to the automotive world, each car manufacturer has to come up with a proprietary design which means that either they pay for development themselves or pay someone else to develop it. Even BT, which is supposed to be a standard, has different "flavors" or implementations. That's why some BT phones work better than others with our cars.
I think the MOST bus is supposed to be a standard to allow third parties to develop products for our cars but that's still in it's infancy.
Until standards are developed and adopted for widespread use, there won't be market maturity or mass production for these gadgets in our cars...
The problem is that since there are no real standards (other than BT) that apply to the automotive world, each car manufacturer has to come up with a proprietary design which means that either they pay for development themselves or pay someone else to develop it. Even BT, which is supposed to be a standard, has different "flavors" or implementations. That's why some BT phones work better than others with our cars.
I think the MOST bus is supposed to be a standard to allow third parties to develop products for our cars but that's still in it's infancy.
Until standards are developed and adopted for widespread use, there won't be market maturity or mass production for these gadgets in our cars...
04-14-2005, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Guest' date='Apr 14 2005, 10:23 AM
Market maturity is everything. In 10 years, every car will have BT standard since the electronics cost<$50 and Nav will cost $300.
Just look at computers. Who would of thought that such complex things would get so cheap. DVD players for $20???
Just look at computers. Who would of thought that such complex things would get so cheap. DVD players for $20???
[snapback]115306[/snapback]
04-14-2005, 06:30 AM
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Actually BMW options are in the middle of the range. Acura throws it all in. MB charges far more the same options. BMWs are more expensive. Why does a Rolex cost more than an Omega?
04-14-2005, 06:35 AM
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Rudy,
I think we shall have to agree to disagree on this one. There is no way that BMW is not making a huge mark up on every nav unit sold.
This is not hugely complex technology we are talking about here. Nav systems have been available for years and the fall in price of after market systems shows more truth about the correct pricing of this type of product. The software conflict issue is a different problem entirely and says more about BMW's ability to integrate new technologies rather than cost issues. I have the Porsche Communication Management system (PCM) on my 997 and this manages to control the entertainment, Nav, OBC, and phone from one screen with no conflicts. All of this from a much smaller manufacturer than BMW.
The vast majority of these components, be it nav or entertainment systems, are made by third party specialist manufacturers, not the auto makers. Therefore the development costs are more evenly spread as they sell the product to a wider audience.
Technology issues aside I was merely pointing out that a lot of options are ludicrously overpriced on many cars and "premium" brand manufacturers are more guilty of this than the volume brands because they are trading on their name. I just think that they should treat their customers a little better and either increase the standard equipment tally to justify the high price tag of the car or reduce the option prices to realistic levels. It's a question of value for money. I mean ?250 for a CD changer that isn't even an in-dash set up for instance... ?? Don't forget that in real terms cars are a lot more expensive here in Europe than they are in the US. Professional Navigation is an $1800 option in the US. In the UK it costs $3665. Base price of a 545i in US is $55,800. In the UK it is $79,800. Perhaps this fact sheds light on why I think BMW are having a laugh. Your cars get shipped halfway across the globe from Germany and you pay half the price we do. Where is the logic in that? Same car, same options, same price to build at the factory. Welcome to rip off Britain/Europe. The letter in the magazine I mentioned in my earlier post was the letter of the week so the staff and editor of the publication were obviously in agreement with the sentiment.
I think we shall have to agree to disagree on this one. There is no way that BMW is not making a huge mark up on every nav unit sold.
This is not hugely complex technology we are talking about here. Nav systems have been available for years and the fall in price of after market systems shows more truth about the correct pricing of this type of product. The software conflict issue is a different problem entirely and says more about BMW's ability to integrate new technologies rather than cost issues. I have the Porsche Communication Management system (PCM) on my 997 and this manages to control the entertainment, Nav, OBC, and phone from one screen with no conflicts. All of this from a much smaller manufacturer than BMW.
The vast majority of these components, be it nav or entertainment systems, are made by third party specialist manufacturers, not the auto makers. Therefore the development costs are more evenly spread as they sell the product to a wider audience.
Technology issues aside I was merely pointing out that a lot of options are ludicrously overpriced on many cars and "premium" brand manufacturers are more guilty of this than the volume brands because they are trading on their name. I just think that they should treat their customers a little better and either increase the standard equipment tally to justify the high price tag of the car or reduce the option prices to realistic levels. It's a question of value for money. I mean ?250 for a CD changer that isn't even an in-dash set up for instance... ?? Don't forget that in real terms cars are a lot more expensive here in Europe than they are in the US. Professional Navigation is an $1800 option in the US. In the UK it costs $3665. Base price of a 545i in US is $55,800. In the UK it is $79,800. Perhaps this fact sheds light on why I think BMW are having a laugh. Your cars get shipped halfway across the globe from Germany and you pay half the price we do. Where is the logic in that? Same car, same options, same price to build at the factory. Welcome to rip off Britain/Europe. The letter in the magazine I mentioned in my earlier post was the letter of the week so the staff and editor of the publication were obviously in agreement with the sentiment.
04-14-2005, 06:55 AM
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ISUK, I think both of us bring up valid points so I'm seeing this as a discussion, not a disagreement so there's no need to agree to disagree as far as I'm concerned...
I think it's true that BMW "holds us hostage" with some of the tech options (as in my Motorola V60i example) and I know other manufacturers do it cheaper. My wife's Honda Odyssey has more gadgets on it than my semi-loaded 545i.
To me, it's still a key point that even though the individual "off the shelf" components that are used to build nav systems, etc. are quite inexpensive, I don't think it's fair to say that the cost of the integrated system should be the sum of it's parts.
I think it's true that BMW "holds us hostage" with some of the tech options (as in my Motorola V60i example) and I know other manufacturers do it cheaper. My wife's Honda Odyssey has more gadgets on it than my semi-loaded 545i.
To me, it's still a key point that even though the individual "off the shelf" components that are used to build nav systems, etc. are quite inexpensive, I don't think it's fair to say that the cost of the integrated system should be the sum of it's parts.