What do you say in court to fight a ticket?
01-19-2005, 03:17 AM
#21
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I understood that.. Thanks again for the good info..
01-19-2005, 04:45 AM
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When you brake from making 30 Km/h to a full stop, you will be at a full stop at a point, where a driver who is driving 50 Km/h in an identical situation, would still be "reacting", not even braking yet.
01-19-2005, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Robbie' date='Jan 19 2005, 05:03 AM
[quote name='evperry' date='Jan 18 2005, 06:37 PM']I have sympathy becuase there is a BIG difference in reckless driving and someone going 10-15 MPH over the posted limits, its not a big deal at all.
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[/quote]I think you missed the point. I started the discussion by saying "no" to speeding in neighborhoods or school zones. I was talking about highway driving where, I still belive, you can safely drive 15 mph over the speed limit.
01-19-2005, 06:25 AM
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The danger lies not in the speed.... but in the difference in speed between drivers.
Sure your BMW is easily capable of driving under control at speeds over 100 mph. But passing grandma in her oldsmobile going 45 mph is where things get dangerous.
Then there are people with crappy cars that want to drive fast, but shouldn't be. (ie a large, topheavy SUV.... or a jeep wrangler) One miscalculation and they'll flip 30 times.
Sure your BMW is easily capable of driving under control at speeds over 100 mph. But passing grandma in her oldsmobile going 45 mph is where things get dangerous.
Then there are people with crappy cars that want to drive fast, but shouldn't be. (ie a large, topheavy SUV.... or a jeep wrangler) One miscalculation and they'll flip 30 times.
01-19-2005, 06:41 AM
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Don't get me started 
The only place I even consider going over the posted speed limits is on limited access Turnpikes, Interstate highways or the very sparsely populated areas in the desert Southwest or high plains areas of Eastern Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Kansas, etc. However, if even these areas are busy I am content to go with the flow even if it ends up being around the posted limit (+ or -). No sense in getting yourself or others upset and having to make defensive moves due to my driving. Get me in a residential or business area, however, and it is the speed limit. Around schools I may even tend to go under the posted and get very upset at those that do not observe the posted in these dangerous locations.
The only place I even consider going over the posted speed limits is on limited access Turnpikes, Interstate highways or the very sparsely populated areas in the desert Southwest or high plains areas of Eastern Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Kansas, etc. However, if even these areas are busy I am content to go with the flow even if it ends up being around the posted limit (+ or -). No sense in getting yourself or others upset and having to make defensive moves due to my driving. Get me in a residential or business area, however, and it is the speed limit. Around schools I may even tend to go under the posted and get very upset at those that do not observe the posted in these dangerous locations.
01-19-2005, 07:15 AM
#26
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No no no...You are missing the point, due to the fact that I was not clear and assumed that no sane, rational, sensible, reassonable, person speeds in residential neighborhoods.
On the HIGHWAY / Expressway / Parkway when you are going with the flow of traffic, albeit its 10-15 MPH over the posted, I do not think thats any more dangerous than the act of driving. Ive been to a few municipalities outside of NYC where they have MINIMUM speeds posted because they recoznize that too slow could be just as malevolent as too fast. In further support of my argument a few municipalities local to NYC have INCREASED the speed limit to 65MPH, which is what I was doing on Monday when I got lasered by an officer.
Why not just make the speed limit 10 MPH across the board so there would never be another vehicular fatality? Let me say this, is almost every accident that I have personally witnessed, it wasnt speed that was the issue, its always an idiot doing something reckless. People who tailgate, dont signal in heavy traffic, move 2 lanes over within seconds, cut off cars, etc, are the problems. In 2005 we have intelligent airbags, crumple zones, steel reinforcement, sideimpact protection, ABS, traction control, limited slip and yet speed limits are the same as they were 50 years ago when seatbelts were optional. Municiplaties have dedicated troopers and officers to give out tickets which in turn costs taxpayers money and the officers time in court, for someone going 10-15 over the limit.. I would much rather the rapists and drug lords be worked on than a guy heading home in traffic doign 65-70 and otherwise driving safely.
Ohh and by the way, how about the kid who stepped in front of that same car doing 40 MPH at 27 meters??? Did he make it?
-e
At 40MPH, the typical stopping distance is 36 metres. At 50MPH it is 53MPH. poor kid who stepped into the road 37 metres in front of you when you're doing 50MPH in a 40MPH zone.......oh, I forgot, you're a careful driver, so the kid wouldn't step into the road between those two parked cars where you couldn't see him. Shame he's dead now, so you can't explain to him what a careful driver you are, and that speeding is OK if you're not reckless.
On the HIGHWAY / Expressway / Parkway when you are going with the flow of traffic, albeit its 10-15 MPH over the posted, I do not think thats any more dangerous than the act of driving. Ive been to a few municipalities outside of NYC where they have MINIMUM speeds posted because they recoznize that too slow could be just as malevolent as too fast. In further support of my argument a few municipalities local to NYC have INCREASED the speed limit to 65MPH, which is what I was doing on Monday when I got lasered by an officer.
Why not just make the speed limit 10 MPH across the board so there would never be another vehicular fatality? Let me say this, is almost every accident that I have personally witnessed, it wasnt speed that was the issue, its always an idiot doing something reckless. People who tailgate, dont signal in heavy traffic, move 2 lanes over within seconds, cut off cars, etc, are the problems. In 2005 we have intelligent airbags, crumple zones, steel reinforcement, sideimpact protection, ABS, traction control, limited slip and yet speed limits are the same as they were 50 years ago when seatbelts were optional. Municiplaties have dedicated troopers and officers to give out tickets which in turn costs taxpayers money and the officers time in court, for someone going 10-15 over the limit.. I would much rather the rapists and drug lords be worked on than a guy heading home in traffic doign 65-70 and otherwise driving safely.
Ohh and by the way, how about the kid who stepped in front of that same car doing 40 MPH at 27 meters??? Did he make it?
-e
Originally Posted by Robbie' date='Jan 19 2005, 05:03 AM
[quote name='evperry' date='Jan 18 2005, 06:37 PM']I have sympathy becuase there is a BIG difference in reckless driving and someone going 10-15 MPH over the posted limits, its not a big deal at all.
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[/quote]
01-19-2005, 07:33 AM
#27
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I'm not gonna go on, but I'm just going to give you some examples of jobs I've been on where...
1) Speed has been a major contributing factor to the accident
2) No other vehicles where involved
3) The accident did not occur in a built up area
Example 1
Driver was driving home from work late at night. Roads were empty, and so the driver was driving excessivly fast (we proved this from impact marks further up the road) - about 70 in a 50 zone.
The car, whilst going round a bend, hit some oil on the road, and under-steered drastically. The passenger side wheels of the car mounted the grass verge, causing the car to flip onto its' side, and then partially onto it's roof.
The driver was thrown toward the (now smashed) window, and his head was trapped between the still moving car and the road surface.
Half of the drivers head was removed.
Example 2
Driver was driving along a long, straight country road. Limit 50MPH. Excellent visability of the road. the road is flanked on either side by a hedge and ditch. this was about 15:30 hrs. Estimated speed was 65MPH
Witness driving in opposite direction saw a small roe deer emerge from the hedgerow in front of the car. Driver swerved towards side of road to avoid deer. Rolled car one and a half times. Car finished up on its roof at the side of the road. the driver, whilst wearing a seatbelt, and all air bags deployed, was ejected from the car onto the road, where the car landed on top of him.
He died from massive chest injuries whilst the fire crew was attempting to extricate him.
These are just two examples of RTAs I have dealt with. Everyone says that it's safe to do 15 or 20 over the limit until you've seen stuff like this.
Speed is great on a track day where the enviornoment is controlled, there are no crazy buggers coming in the opposite direction, there are no kerbs to flip your car etc.. etc..
But on the public road, speed limit are there for a reason.
1) Speed has been a major contributing factor to the accident
2) No other vehicles where involved
3) The accident did not occur in a built up area
Example 1
Driver was driving home from work late at night. Roads were empty, and so the driver was driving excessivly fast (we proved this from impact marks further up the road) - about 70 in a 50 zone.
The car, whilst going round a bend, hit some oil on the road, and under-steered drastically. The passenger side wheels of the car mounted the grass verge, causing the car to flip onto its' side, and then partially onto it's roof.
The driver was thrown toward the (now smashed) window, and his head was trapped between the still moving car and the road surface.
Half of the drivers head was removed.
Example 2
Driver was driving along a long, straight country road. Limit 50MPH. Excellent visability of the road. the road is flanked on either side by a hedge and ditch. this was about 15:30 hrs. Estimated speed was 65MPH
Witness driving in opposite direction saw a small roe deer emerge from the hedgerow in front of the car. Driver swerved towards side of road to avoid deer. Rolled car one and a half times. Car finished up on its roof at the side of the road. the driver, whilst wearing a seatbelt, and all air bags deployed, was ejected from the car onto the road, where the car landed on top of him.
He died from massive chest injuries whilst the fire crew was attempting to extricate him.
These are just two examples of RTAs I have dealt with. Everyone says that it's safe to do 15 or 20 over the limit until you've seen stuff like this.
Speed is great on a track day where the enviornoment is controlled, there are no crazy buggers coming in the opposite direction, there are no kerbs to flip your car etc.. etc..
But on the public road, speed limit are there for a reason.
01-19-2005, 08:09 AM
#28
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Become a cop or other kind of law enforcement officer like FBI,US Customs,Secret Service,DEA or a Correction Officer or District Attorney or Asst. DA.
Or be good friends with one and get a PBA card or courteousy shield
You will definitely be able to slide on minor traffic offenses but not DWI :winkcool:
Or be good friends with one and get a PBA card or courteousy shield
You will definitely be able to slide on minor traffic offenses but not DWI :winkcool:
01-19-2005, 08:27 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by Robbie' date='Jan 19 2005, 05:33 PM
I'm not gonna go on, but I'm just going to give you some examples of jobs I've been on where...
1) Speed has been a major contributing factor to the accident
2) No other vehicles where involved
3) The accident did not occur in a built up area
Example 1
Driver was driving home from work late at night. Roads were empty, and so the driver was driving excessivly fast (we proved this from impact marks further up the road) - about 70 in a 50 zone.
The car, whilst going round a bend, hit some oil on the road, and under-steered drastically. The passenger side wheels of the car mounted the grass verge, causing the car to flip onto its' side, and then partially onto it's roof.?
The driver was thrown toward the (now smashed) window, and his head was trapped between the still moving car and the road surface.
Half of the drivers head was removed.
Example 2
Driver was driving along a long, straight country road. Limit 50MPH. Excellent visability of the road. the road is flanked on either side by a hedge and ditch. this was about 15:30 hrs. Estimated speed was 65MPH
Witness driving in opposite direction saw a small roe deer emerge from the hedgerow in front of the car. Driver swerved towards side of road to avoid deer. Rolled car one and a half times. Car finished up on its roof at the side of the road. the driver, whilst wearing a seatbelt, and all air bags deployed, was ejected from the car onto the road, where the car landed on top of him.
He died from massive chest injuries whilst the fire crew was attempting to extricate him.
These are just two examples of RTAs I have dealt with. Everyone says that it's safe to do 15 or 20 over the limit until you've seen stuff like this.
Speed is great on a track day where the enviornoment is controlled, there are no crazy buggers coming in the opposite direction, there are no kerbs to flip your car etc.. etc..
But on the public road, speed limit are there for a reason.
1) Speed has been a major contributing factor to the accident
2) No other vehicles where involved
3) The accident did not occur in a built up area
Example 1
Driver was driving home from work late at night. Roads were empty, and so the driver was driving excessivly fast (we proved this from impact marks further up the road) - about 70 in a 50 zone.
The car, whilst going round a bend, hit some oil on the road, and under-steered drastically. The passenger side wheels of the car mounted the grass verge, causing the car to flip onto its' side, and then partially onto it's roof.?
The driver was thrown toward the (now smashed) window, and his head was trapped between the still moving car and the road surface.
Half of the drivers head was removed.
Example 2
Driver was driving along a long, straight country road. Limit 50MPH. Excellent visability of the road. the road is flanked on either side by a hedge and ditch. this was about 15:30 hrs. Estimated speed was 65MPH
Witness driving in opposite direction saw a small roe deer emerge from the hedgerow in front of the car. Driver swerved towards side of road to avoid deer. Rolled car one and a half times. Car finished up on its roof at the side of the road. the driver, whilst wearing a seatbelt, and all air bags deployed, was ejected from the car onto the road, where the car landed on top of him.
He died from massive chest injuries whilst the fire crew was attempting to extricate him.
These are just two examples of RTAs I have dealt with. Everyone says that it's safe to do 15 or 20 over the limit until you've seen stuff like this.
Speed is great on a track day where the enviornoment is controlled, there are no crazy buggers coming in the opposite direction, there are no kerbs to flip your car etc.. etc..
But on the public road, speed limit are there for a reason.
[snapback]80752[/snapback]
Reading example 1 tells me, this dude reacted false in an understeering situation what made the car flip. With a correct reaction nothing would have happened. But he didn't knew enough about driving physics and how to react correctly.
Same with example 2. It's the false reaction of the driver that caused the one and a half roll. With training and knowledge about driving physics he would have been fine, even with that speed.
Because the most drivers don't know enough about the driving physics and are not experienced/trained enough, all those speed limits are there for a very good reason.
I personally hate speed limits, of course. But I do respect most of them, and I am sometimes just a little bit, not much!, over the limit on highways.
I don't see the need for speeding, it doesn't save much time. I take my time and am relaxed.
I took part in two driver trainings and have a lot of driving experience for somebody in my age. I also had a lot of accidents, most of them where not my fault. I have seen it all. People getting killed and injured, I even went airborne once with my car.
I allways stay under my limit and respect speed limits, even though I could do waaaay more with my car.
01-19-2005, 09:19 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Jan 19 2005, 12:27 PM
I personally hate speed limits, of course. But I do respect most of them, and I am sometimes just a little bit, not much!, over the limit on highways.
I don't see the need for speeding, it doesn't save much time. I take my time and am relaxed.
I allways stay under my limit and respect speed limits, even though I could do waaaay more with my car.
I don't see the need for speeding, it doesn't save much time. I take my time and am relaxed.
I allways stay under my limit and respect speed limits, even though I could do waaaay more with my car.
[snapback]80770[/snapback]
Iceman - what are the speed limits on German highways? Of course they vary, but I belive they are universally higher than the US 55/65 mph. If the speed limit here was 100 mph (which I think is still lower than some of the German limits) I would have no problem staying within the limits.
The original point I was tryng to make is that a 55 mph speed limit is rather arbitrary, not motivated by safety reasons, and llikely motivated by politics (US federal highway dollars are or were tied to a 55 mph sped limit).
Given the same road conditions, I see no justification for a 100 mph limit in Germany and a 55 mph limit in the States. If a US driver does 75 mph in a 55 mph limit , and under the same conditions a German driver does 75 in a 100 mph limit, is the US driver more reckless? I do not think so.
My only point being that the posted speed limit is not a very good indication of a safe traveling speed. Sometime a safe speed will be below the posted limit andsometime it will exceed the limit.