JetBlack5OC

Its not the question whether global warming is occurring. Its the question is it natural or man-made. I personally believe in climate change. Pollution is certainly not helping, but is it the sole cause of it. The notion of mans complete responsibility for global warning has wrongly been adopted as universal truth. Just because Al Gore made a documentary, doesn't mean everything he said are facts. The earths climate has changed since God put it here, we have had cyclical changes and most of it is purely natural.

One fact in Gore's film that people should Google. The cause-and-effect relationship of CO2 and temperatures. Obviously, temperatures go up throughout history. The scientific literature is fairly clear, fairly uniform. Temperatures go up; then, CO2 concentrations go up. CO2 does not drive temperature.

You mention weather in the US. Two hurricane seasons ago we had numerous hurricanes that included hurricane Katrina that hit New Orleans. And all the left wingers came out, blaming it and the other hurricanes on global warming. Well the last hurricane season well had a total of ZERO hurricanes, should we blame that on global warming also. Weather is a cyclical process that has been going on for millions of years.

Not to long ago people and the media were warning about a global cooling. Yes I said global cooling. Here is a Newsweek article from the 70s.
http://denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf

Your using a graph that shows temperatures that only date back about 150 yrs. Is that the only graph you could find on the net, most likely you found that in wikipedia. Even if you were to construct a graph that dated back lets say a 1000 years, like for example the famous Hockey Stick Graph. Which has been surrounded in controversy since its creation. It conveniently leaves out the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age. Not to mention the enormous margin of error.

Nice comment BetterMakeWay, "ignorant Americans", real classy bud.

fjwagner

BetterMakeWay you just emphasized my point. Because I am a contrarian on global warming, then I am an "ignorant" American in your view. As I said, if we speak out we are called names just like you are doing. Engaging in an intelligent debate is discouraged. You are presenting incomplete facts over a short time period. As I asked in my original note, how do you explain changing climate before the industrial age? Do you have a graph for that? Cease and desist the "ignorant" comments. Those kind of statements make you lose any credibility you may think you had.

BetterMakeWay

Yes i agree weather is cyclical but what i wanted to prove with that graph, which btw is all i needed, was to show that the change is happening way too early, and way too fast, in an exponential growth. That's it and none the less. And the cause of it is almost 100% man made.

So are you saying that we are not suffering now from global warming? Yes or no?

And if we don't than it's all natural and so is the exponential factor? yes or no?

But if we are than it's not man made? yes or no?

Pure coincidence that co2 and other gases produced by auto vehicles and industries raise alongside with the warming factor? yes or no?

Is it another coincidence that either from pressure and/or responsibility governs all over the world take more and more restrictive measures as to the auto vehicle pollution?

There are so many questions and so many simple answers but i don't see any kind of prove or logical argument in all your contrarian ideas. All you claim is that climate changes started before the industrial age but where is your support for that? Why are you asking me to bring prove for your own arguments?

And to respond to you jetBlack here's the deal:

IMO CO2 and other gases can and do affect the weather in a rather simple way: co2 and methane among others affect the "permeability" of the atmosphere to reflect back into space solar radiation, which in turns is reflected back into earth creating a greenhouse effect, which leads to global warming.

Here's a global warming projection of several institutes:

Also you can see here the linear decrease of the glacier thickness in the relevant period of time:

Also HERE you can see the co2 (the biggest factor for the greenhouse effect) variations throughout time with reflection to the industrial age impact:

Another representation recorded at Mauna Loca:

In the below graph you can see the fact that in the summer time it's clear the apport of CO2 is greater since the sun radiation is bigger, and the air temperature impacts the density which in turn impacts the release into stratosphere of the co2 and onwards.

So please provide facts! Not Al Gore clips or words in the wind.

rodybmw

It's much easier to believe Al Gore and the media when they say the debate in the scientific community is over than to do some research and see what scientists on the "other side" say. If Al Gore says the debate is over, wins an Oscar, and the media and Hollywood actively push, promote and manufacture news reports and movies that show their side of the issue while they ignore and sweep under the rug the data from the opposing side, then how is that not one sided. It's borderline censorship. Let's face it, a huge majority of people get their information about everything through the media, movies, and TV and take that information as gospel, so is it any wonder why so many people don't even know that there are big holes in the human induced global warming "evidence" and also credible data and evidence on the other side?

You may argue that the opposing view is represented on the Internet and people can find info if they dig for it, but that's very different than having it force fed to you through the media and movies. Remember all the apocalyptic movies about nuclear war a few decades ago? I am sure now we are going to see apocalyptic movies about the future and global warming come out of Hollywood.

There was another thread on global warming a couple of months ago which was very heated, I suggest continuing that one if anybody wants to and letting this one return to the original subject, which was diesel cars in the US......and please, stop belittling people by calling them "ignorant" just because they have a different view than you.

BetterMakeWay

I'm sorry Rudy, i'll stop now. It seems it doesn't do any good for me to keep shouting for the deafs. I'm calling ignorant for with a reason. It's not that offensive as it sounds, but i'd like to see a European or any other non-American who thinks like that. BUT this in another thread, by input here is over.

rodybmw

I guess I'm going to continue the hijack of this thread a bit longer. There are some people for whom the Global Warming issue is like a religion and they will not be persuaded otherwise, but for those with open minds (which I'm sure includes you Better Make Way) considering other views and sources is a good thing. There are other scientists with other sets of data that contradict with the ones you posted. You should go to the link I'm posting below and read that article in detail and all the way through. I'm posting a couple of the graph charts here, but there is a lot more detail in the text of the article which further discusses these charts and much more, it also addresses a lot of the issues that you raised above. They say that CO2 is only responsible for 3% of greenhouse gasses and the man made contribution to that is only -.05 to .25%, the rest (96% ro so) is caused by water vapor. I don't know if these things are completely right or not, but you should still read the article.

If none of your views change after reading the article that's fine, but at least you would have more info than 90% of the Global Warming crowd, and you would also see that Al Gore is wrong when he says that the debate on Global Warming in the scientific community is over.......it's far from it, but people wouldn't know it if their only source for info is the media, celebrities, and movies.

Here's the link------>>>>>LINK TO ARTICLE

BetterMakeWay

Thanks for the link. I read your text, will read the article a bit later

pinguhk

wow you guys with the Global Warming, let just have fun and enjoy our live, the earth is going to die someday.
So right now we all must do a little some thing to slow it down, Like take the bus if you live in a city like me and dont drive to work.
All my cars are only for fun and weekends. So this is my part in helping the would in Global Warming.
Back to the post topic GM are in Global Warming if they dont like diesel cars, every 1 know you get more mpg out of diesel cars and the diesel cars are very good nowdays.
Just look at the bio diesel, this has to be the next best thing, on the planet, gorwing stuff to make fuel that is cool.

fjwagner

You attempt to end the thread but you have to throw ignorant out one more time. You have to slap Americans one more time. We encourage independent thinking in this country and all of us are not lemmings. You asked for a non-American who thinks like that. Try the President of the Czech Republic who is adamant in the dangers of the pro-global warming forces. http://www.terradaily.com/2007/07051....m6fafbfq.html. I am going to refrain from name calling which you are unable to do. Grow up.

BetterMakeWay

Ok sorry i called you "names". I stick to what i know, i've learned and i believe in. It's time to move on, it won't make any difference if we continue to argue on our divergent ways.

"Klaus, as well as being a well known eurosceptic and a fan of former British premier Margaret Thatcher, has now lined up alongside the US sceptics in the climate change debate."
"Klaus argued that environmentalism represented just as big a danger to freedom as communism."
Ok i'll go buy a BMW H7 and start being a communist

"Behind their people- and nature-friendly terminology, the adherents of environmentalism make ambitious attempts to radically reorganize and change the world, human society, our behavior, and our values," OH YEAH BABY