FREEDOM OF SPEECH
06-26-2009, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pjinca' post='925078' date='Jun 26 2009, 06:06 PM
Ah, but even between individuals one cannot be held accountable for their opinions - for instance saying "In my opinion you and this thread are dumb as shit" IS in fact protected, but if I state it as fact I can be held liable for slander.
For a statement to be actionable defamation is has to be: (1) of and concerning the plaintiff; (2) false; (3) a statement of fact (not opinion and not an epithet); (4) made to a third party (made to a person other than the plaintiff); (5) not protected by a qualified (complaints to the New York State Attorney General, for example, enjoy a qualified privilege where, to be actionable, the statement had to be knowingly false or, at a minimum, made with reckless disregard for their truth) or absolute privilege (statements in court filings are never actionable as defamation). There are twists in the law but those are some of the basic principles. Libel is a defamatory statement in a printed form while slander is a defamatory statement made orally.
Generally calling someone a profane word/epithet is not actionable as that is considered to be an opinion and not a fact. There are literally appellate decisions in New York which hold that calling someone "stupid" or an "asshole" and other similar epithets are not actionable. If you changed your statement to "you and this thread are as dumb as shit" it would still not be actionable. But if one said, "John Jones dropped out of college" (when the John Jones did not) or "John Jones failed the bar exam twice" (when he did not), that would be an actionable defamatory statement because that is a statement of fact. But, "John Jones is a moron" is generally not actionable.
A defamatory statement made on the open board here could be actionable because the statement is being made to all of the board's members. But an otherwise defamatory statement in a PM directed only to the plaintiff would not be actionable because it is not a statement made by the speaker to third-parties, i.e., to someone other than the plaintiff.
So Craig, what law school and when?
06-26-2009, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sdg1871' post='925183' date='Jun 26 2009, 09:06 PM
I've defended and won defamation lawsuits in New York courts. Suits for defamation are frowned on by the Courts and are subject to ultra-short statutes of limitations and very tough legal standards. Defamation cases are hard to win and, as I've learned from defending them, easy to defend.
For a statement to be actionable defamation is has to be: (1) of and concerning the plaintiff; (2) false; (3) a statement of fact (not opinion and not an epithet); (4) made to a third party (made to a person other than the plaintiff); (5) not protected by a qualified (complaints to the New York State Attorney General, for example, enjoy a qualified privilege where, to be actionable, the statement had to be knowingly false or, at a minimum, made with reckless disregard for their truth) or absolute privilege (statements in court filings are never actionable as defamation). There are twists in the law but those are some of the basic principles. Libel is a defamatory statement in a printed form while slander is a defamatory statement made orally.
Generally calling someone a profane word/epithet is not actionable as that is considered to be an opinion and not a fact. There are literally appellate decisions in New York which hold that calling someone "stupid" or an "asshole" and other similar epithets are not actionable. If you changed your statement to "you and this thread are as dumb as shit" it would still not be actionable. But if one said, "John Jones dropped out of college" (when the John Jones did not) or "John Jones failed the bar exam twice" (when he did not), that would be an actionable defamatory statement because that is a statement of fact. But, "John Jones is a moron" is generally not actionable.
A defamatory statement made on the open board here could be actionable because the statement is being made to all of the board's members. But an otherwise defamatory statement in a PM directed only to the plaintiff would not be actionable because it is not a statement made by the speaker to third-parties, i.e., to someone other than the plaintiff.
So Craig, what law school and when?
For a statement to be actionable defamation is has to be: (1) of and concerning the plaintiff; (2) false; (3) a statement of fact (not opinion and not an epithet); (4) made to a third party (made to a person other than the plaintiff); (5) not protected by a qualified (complaints to the New York State Attorney General, for example, enjoy a qualified privilege where, to be actionable, the statement had to be knowingly false or, at a minimum, made with reckless disregard for their truth) or absolute privilege (statements in court filings are never actionable as defamation). There are twists in the law but those are some of the basic principles. Libel is a defamatory statement in a printed form while slander is a defamatory statement made orally.
Generally calling someone a profane word/epithet is not actionable as that is considered to be an opinion and not a fact. There are literally appellate decisions in New York which hold that calling someone "stupid" or an "asshole" and other similar epithets are not actionable. If you changed your statement to "you and this thread are as dumb as shit" it would still not be actionable. But if one said, "John Jones dropped out of college" (when the John Jones did not) or "John Jones failed the bar exam twice" (when he did not), that would be an actionable defamatory statement because that is a statement of fact. But, "John Jones is a moron" is generally not actionable.
A defamatory statement made on the open board here could be actionable because the statement is being made to all of the board's members. But an otherwise defamatory statement in a PM directed only to the plaintiff would not be actionable because it is not a statement made by the speaker to third-parties, i.e., to someone other than the plaintiff.
So Craig, what law school and when?
hilarious. I was intently reading your post, taking in EVERY word. then i read the last line. it was very appropriate.
funny thing is, I just experienced the joy of being slandered at work. the government contract world is VERY competitive, therefore a lot of backstabbing happens. I was asked by my boss to raise the bar. I said "i would be more then happy to, but i dont want to create tension between my coworkers and I". I have a slightly different background then my peers and have the ability to step up what they were asking me to.
Turns out, my bosses liked the progress and changes that i had made. so much they sent out an email to the teams distro telling the rest of the team to take cue from me. Well I am the new guy, and this went over like a lead balloon.
so i started getting trash talked when i wasnt around. i work nights, they work days. When They are at work, the rest of the division is there. one person in particular made it "known" to many people that i am a substandard worker, dont accomplish tasks, etc. he made this known to people not on the team, that arent familiar with my work, but people that do work for the same defense contractor as me. I was approached by someone from my company telling me i had to get to the bottom of this, as this could very well affect my job. I played damage control, got an apology, but there is concern the damage has been done. If i lose my job, I would research the possibility of a defamation suit and sue for lost wages, of course I would search for another job immediately. The hard part is proving defamation/slander. Fortunately my work ethic precedes any rumor that might be started. I did speak with my bosses and they are very pleased with my performance. I made them aware of the situation and they delt with the other employee. problem is i have a government boss, responsible for everything work related, and a corporate boss whom i have very little interaction with.
anyway, I think I am okay, but there is still some irrefutable damage done. i dont speak with many people on other teams, but they heard the slander. i may some day have to work with their team and i may or may not be looked down upon.
06-26-2009, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by craigm1841' post='925198' date='Jun 26 2009, 09:23 PM
hilarious. I was intently reading your post, taking in EVERY word. then i read the last line. it was very appropriate.
funny thing is, I just experienced the joy of being slandered at work. the government contract world is VERY competitive, therefore a lot of backstabbing happens. I was asked by my boss to raise the bar. I said "i would be more then happy to, but i dont want to create tension between my coworkers and I". I have a slightly different background then my peers and have the ability to step up what they were asking me to.
Turns out, my bosses liked the progress and changes that i had made. so much they sent out an email to the teams distro telling the rest of the team to take cue from me. Well I am the new guy, and this went over like a lead balloon.
so i started getting trash talked when i wasnt around. i work nights, they work days. When They are at work, the rest of the division is there. one person in particular made it "known" to many people that i am a substandard worker, dont accomplish tasks, etc. he made this known to people not on the team, that arent familiar with my work, but people that do work for the same defense contractor as me. I was approached by someone from my company telling me i had to get to the bottom of this, as this could very well affect my job. I played damage control, got an apology, but there is concern the damage has been done. If i lose my job, I would research the possibility of a defamation suit and sue for lost wages, of course I would search for another job immediately. The hard part is proving defamation/slander. Fortunately my work ethic precedes any rumor that might be started. I did speak with my bosses and they are very pleased with my performance. I made them aware of the situation and they delt with the other employee. problem is i have a government boss, responsible for everything work related, and a corporate boss whom i have very little interaction with.
anyway, I think I am okay, but there is still some irrefutable damage done. i dont speak with many people on other teams, but they heard the slander. i may some day have to work with their team and i may or may not be looked down upon.
funny thing is, I just experienced the joy of being slandered at work. the government contract world is VERY competitive, therefore a lot of backstabbing happens. I was asked by my boss to raise the bar. I said "i would be more then happy to, but i dont want to create tension between my coworkers and I". I have a slightly different background then my peers and have the ability to step up what they were asking me to.
Turns out, my bosses liked the progress and changes that i had made. so much they sent out an email to the teams distro telling the rest of the team to take cue from me. Well I am the new guy, and this went over like a lead balloon.
so i started getting trash talked when i wasnt around. i work nights, they work days. When They are at work, the rest of the division is there. one person in particular made it "known" to many people that i am a substandard worker, dont accomplish tasks, etc. he made this known to people not on the team, that arent familiar with my work, but people that do work for the same defense contractor as me. I was approached by someone from my company telling me i had to get to the bottom of this, as this could very well affect my job. I played damage control, got an apology, but there is concern the damage has been done. If i lose my job, I would research the possibility of a defamation suit and sue for lost wages, of course I would search for another job immediately. The hard part is proving defamation/slander. Fortunately my work ethic precedes any rumor that might be started. I did speak with my bosses and they are very pleased with my performance. I made them aware of the situation and they delt with the other employee. problem is i have a government boss, responsible for everything work related, and a corporate boss whom i have very little interaction with.
anyway, I think I am okay, but there is still some irrefutable damage done. i dont speak with many people on other teams, but they heard the slander. i may some day have to work with their team and i may or may not be looked down upon.
Craig, I can tell my from my own personal experience that the best response to those would might be jealous of you within your firm is your sucess. There is no better comeback to the unfortunate behavior of malicious co-workers than that.
06-26-2009, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by craigm1841' post='925198' date='Jun 26 2009, 06:23 PM
hilarious. I was intently reading your post, taking in EVERY word. then i read the last line. it was very appropriate.
funny thing is, I just experienced the joy of being slandered at work. the government contract world is VERY competitive, therefore a lot of backstabbing happens. I was asked by my boss to raise the bar. I said "i would be more then happy to, but i dont want to create tension between my coworkers and I". I have a slightly different background then my peers and have the ability to step up what they were asking me to.
Turns out, my bosses liked the progress and changes that i had made. so much they sent out an email to the teams distro telling the rest of the team to take cue from me. Well I am the new guy, and this went over like a lead balloon.
so i started getting trash talked when i wasnt around. i work nights, they work days. When They are at work, the rest of the division is there. one person in particular made it "known" to many people that i am a substandard worker, dont accomplish tasks, etc. he made this known to people not on the team, that arent familiar with my work, but people that do work for the same defense contractor as me. I was approached by someone from my company telling me i had to get to the bottom of this, as this could very well affect my job. I played damage control, got an apology, but there is concern the damage has been done. If i lose my job, I would research the possibility of a defamation suit and sue for lost wages, of course I would search for another job immediately. The hard part is proving defamation/slander. Fortunately my work ethic precedes any rumor that might be started. I did speak with my bosses and they are very pleased with my performance. I made them aware of the situation and they delt with the other employee. problem is i have a government boss, responsible for everything work related, and a corporate boss whom i have very little interaction with.
anyway, I think I am okay, but there is still some irrefutable damage done. i dont speak with many people on other teams, but they heard the slander. i may some day have to work with their team and i may or may not be looked down upon.
funny thing is, I just experienced the joy of being slandered at work. the government contract world is VERY competitive, therefore a lot of backstabbing happens. I was asked by my boss to raise the bar. I said "i would be more then happy to, but i dont want to create tension between my coworkers and I". I have a slightly different background then my peers and have the ability to step up what they were asking me to.
Turns out, my bosses liked the progress and changes that i had made. so much they sent out an email to the teams distro telling the rest of the team to take cue from me. Well I am the new guy, and this went over like a lead balloon.
so i started getting trash talked when i wasnt around. i work nights, they work days. When They are at work, the rest of the division is there. one person in particular made it "known" to many people that i am a substandard worker, dont accomplish tasks, etc. he made this known to people not on the team, that arent familiar with my work, but people that do work for the same defense contractor as me. I was approached by someone from my company telling me i had to get to the bottom of this, as this could very well affect my job. I played damage control, got an apology, but there is concern the damage has been done. If i lose my job, I would research the possibility of a defamation suit and sue for lost wages, of course I would search for another job immediately. The hard part is proving defamation/slander. Fortunately my work ethic precedes any rumor that might be started. I did speak with my bosses and they are very pleased with my performance. I made them aware of the situation and they delt with the other employee. problem is i have a government boss, responsible for everything work related, and a corporate boss whom i have very little interaction with.
anyway, I think I am okay, but there is still some irrefutable damage done. i dont speak with many people on other teams, but they heard the slander. i may some day have to work with their team and i may or may not be looked down upon.
06-26-2009, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by juris335' post='925065' date='Jun 26 2009, 05:53 PM
Keep in mind, as you cogitate over the "limits" on AVATARS and photos of SEXY WOMEN, that under the U.S. Constitution and each of the State Constitutions you have no right to Freedom of Speech from private individuals. Only the Government and its sub-agencies owe FREE SPEECH to the folks.
Thus, a website that is not a government website does not owe anyone the Right of Free Speech.
Thus, a website that is not a government website does not owe anyone the Right of Free Speech.
06-27-2009, 07:47 AM
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Am I the only one here who was hoping this thread would "degrade" into examples of "inappropriate" avatar images etc.?? 
Is that too much to ask??
Is that too much to ask??
06-27-2009, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jdcinc21' post='925470' date='Jun 27 2009, 02:51 AM
This is the friday night thread fight! Boring, moving on.
06-27-2009, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by flyingpuck' post='925617' date='Jun 27 2009, 09:47 AM
Am I the only one here who was hoping this thread would "degrade" into examples of "inappropriate" avatar images etc.??
Is that too much to ask??
Is that too much to ask??
06-27-2009, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CWS530' post='925092' date='Jun 26 2009, 06:20 PM
This thread is dumb as sh*t. Sue me.
Make a change to the Agreement when u join the forums
"NO PICTURES OF SEXY WOMEN ALLOWED. WE DON'T LIKE THOSE"