Ok e60 vs f10 the showdown lol
10-24-2010, 08:03 AM
#31
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The larger surface area (A) is the simple cars dimensions (Width x Height) minus the recess of the inclination of the cars A pillar towards the roof minus the ground clearance. The frontal surface area of the F10 is bigger than that of the E60 due to its bigger dimensions whether in Europe or any where else.The coefficient of drag of my E60 523i is 0.27. the number was listed on BMW international site when the E60 was still produced. I remember that number very well because I was going to buy a E90 320i with Cd of 0.26, then I bought the E60 with Cd of 0.27. That was in 2006.It might be that you found the Cd on another site that stated the wrong or a different E60 version.Autozine refers to the F10 aerodynamics deterioration when compared to the E60.The article states: "Aerodynamic efficiency has also taken a backward step. The outgoing car (E60) not only had a smaller frontal area but also a lower drag coefficient down to 0.27. The new car starts from 0.28 in the modest models, rising to 0.29 in 535i and 0.30 in 550i. This is a night and day difference from the latest Mercedes E-class, whose drag coefficient ranges from 0.26 to 0.28. Ridiculously, BMW has already applied an innovative automatic flaps to its nose intake, which draws the right amount of air to the radiator depending on cooling demand , thus keep aerodynamic drag to the minimum. It's probably time to head hunt the aerodynamicists from Stuttgart."The force of drag on a car depends on both the Cd multiplied by A. Since both numbers are bigger in the F10 when compared to the E60, then the force of drag will be higher. BMWblog author is mistaken to state that aerodynamics were improved. Sports cars including Porshces and Ferraris (F430 0.33) use different concepts when they are aerodynamically designed. They need more down force to avoid aerodynamic lift at very high speeds which will result in lower stability in high speed corners and might lift the car off the ground in straights. That's why they will end with with higher Cds compared to our sports saloons. In Formula 1, aerodynamics are configured for either top speed (low drag) or cornering stability (higher drag) depending on the track type. If the track has a lot of long straights the aerodynamics will be optimized for top speed, if it has a lot of corners aerodynamics will be optimized for down force while top speed is compromised.
10-24-2010, 08:57 AM
#32
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Sports cars including Porshces and Ferraris (F430 0.33) use different concepts when they are aerodynamically designed. They need more down force to avoid aerodynamic lift at very high speeds which will result in lower stability in high speed corners and might lift the car off the ground in straights. That's why they will end with with higher Cds compared to our sports saloons.
Also, the statement above regarding frontal area, wasn't stating it was different in Europe. He was referring to European regulations requiring larger frontal areas for supposed better pedestrian safety. BMW may have designed to that specification more than Mercedes.
10-24-2010, 09:41 AM
#33
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Could it be that BMW designed in more down force to aid high speed stability? The F10 felt better at speed than my E60. Although front suspension and steering geometry also play a role in that. It is good to design a car to the best aerodynamic compromise but its silly to diss a car for a .01 deficit. That probably makes a .1 mpg difference on the highway and no difference around town.
Also, the statement above regarding frontal area, wasn't stating it was different in Europe. He was referring to European regulations requiring larger frontal areas for supposed better pedestrian safety. BMW may have designed to that specification more than Mercedes.
Also, the statement above regarding frontal area, wasn't stating it was different in Europe. He was referring to European regulations requiring larger frontal areas for supposed better pedestrian safety. BMW may have designed to that specification more than Mercedes.
The 0.01 difference is equivalent to 3.6% of the 0.27 Cd of the E60. This means that the drag force on the car at any speed will be higher than the E60 by 3.6%, and that is while we neglect the effect of the larger frontal surface area. Consequently, the fuel consumption at top speeds will be worse by 3.6% (only at top speeds where the force generated by the engine will serve to mainly counteract the effect of air resistance and not the rolling resistance of tires which is more prominent at low speeds). The effect of the Cd on fuel consumption at normal speeds can be considered negligible as you stated, but not at top speeds.
I am not disrespecting the F10 for the 3.6% deterioration in Cd, I am just commenting on the shortages in the Bmwblog article posted earlier where the article refers to the improved aerodynamics of the F10. The F10 remains to be a great car in most aspects.
10-24-2010, 09:43 AM
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Pretty good written Scudeyyy 
The E60 was a bit sportier and the F10's width is a bitch to estimate.
Otherwise the F10 is better in all.
The E60 was a bit sportier and the F10's width is a bitch to estimate.
Otherwise the F10 is better in all.
10-24-2010, 06:49 PM
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The coefficient of drag of my E60 523i is 0.27. the number was listed on BMW international site when the E60 was still produced. I remember that number very well because I was going to buy a E90 320i with Cd of 0.26, then I bought the E60 with Cd of 0.27. That was in 2006.It might be that you found the Cd on another site that stated the wrong or a different E60 version.
The 2005 E60 523i has a Cd of 0.28 and the 2007 model has 0.27
The 2009 E60 535i has a Cd of 0.29 and the 550i model has 0.30, ie identical with the F10 equivalents.
From all the posts, BMW has added space, luxury and safety measures on the F10 but improved the chassis and some of the engines, making some of its performance and sportiness arguably equivalent to the E60 eg the 535i, and others crushing the E60 eg the F10 550i
10-24-2010, 11:51 PM
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The 2005 320i has a Cd of 0.28 and the 2008 has 0.26.
The 2005 E60 523i has a Cd of 0.28 and the 2007 model has 0.27
The 2009 E60 535i has a Cd of 0.29 and the 550i model has 0.30, ie identical with the F10 equivalents.
From all the posts, BMW has added space, luxury and safety measures on the F10 but improved the chassis and some of the engines, making some of its performance and sportiness arguably equivalent to the E60 eg the 535i, and others crushing the E60 eg the F10 550i
The 2005 E60 523i has a Cd of 0.28 and the 2007 model has 0.27
The 2009 E60 535i has a Cd of 0.29 and the 550i model has 0.30, ie identical with the F10 equivalents.
From all the posts, BMW has added space, luxury and safety measures on the F10 but improved the chassis and some of the engines, making some of its performance and sportiness arguably equivalent to the E60 eg the 535i, and others crushing the E60 eg the F10 550i
.
10-25-2010, 12:23 AM
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The 2005 320i has a Cd of 0.28 and the 2008 has 0.26.
The 2005 E60 523i has a Cd of 0.28 and the 2007 model has 0.27
The 2009 E60 535i has a Cd of 0.29 and the 550i model has 0.30, ie identical with the F10 equivalents.
From all the posts, BMW has added space, luxury and safety measures on the F10 but improved the chassis and some of the engines, making some of its performance and sportiness arguably equivalent to the E60 eg the 535i, and others crushing the E60 eg the F10 550i
The 2005 E60 523i has a Cd of 0.28 and the 2007 model has 0.27
The 2009 E60 535i has a Cd of 0.29 and the 550i model has 0.30, ie identical with the F10 equivalents.
From all the posts, BMW has added space, luxury and safety measures on the F10 but improved the chassis and some of the engines, making some of its performance and sportiness arguably equivalent to the E60 eg the 535i, and others crushing the E60 eg the F10 550i
I've been following some of these discussions and I have to say I'm amazed how restrained and patient some of the members have been when you and a couple of others have trashed their existing cars. What's more surprising is that you seem to be basing all your arguments on reviews and data, rejecting others' more subjective responses on the basis that they are, well, subjective.
A lot of people buy their cars based on subjective criteria. One of the other guys has been trying to point out, quite reasonably I think, that the subjective reason behind most 5-series owners' choice has always been that it has always been more overtly sporty than its rivals. Moving the balance towards a softer ride, must invite some of these people to question whether or not the new model is the car for them, because no matter how good it makes the car - in your opinion even better than the E60 - those improvements are in an area that many of us don't use for our subjective choice of car. It is perfectly fine if you value these traits higher than the more sporting dynamics of the outgoing model, and I'm sure you will be very happy with your car for years with very good reason. But it's also fine if some others point out that they miss (or would miss) the character of the older model. They aren't any more wrong than you are.
BMW have obviously calculated that they will gain more new purchasers than they will lose existing owners if it is felt that the balance has gone wrong, and that is a commercial decision that I'm not qualified to judge. But there is no doubt in my mind that lose existing owners they must, because I'm one of them. Having owned three E60s, I won't be buying an F10 to replace my current car in the next few months. That's not because it's not a good car - it certainly is - but because it's just not my cup of tea. It does feel more comfortable, but it doesn't make me grin, and that is very important to me. I hated the looks of the E60 when it was released, but when I drove one I was hooked, and the looks grew on me. I don't dislike the F10's looks (not very adventurous, but after all the criticism of the Bangle years, I see why BMW have toned things down) but just didn't get it when I drove it.
And that's a problem for BMW, because while it's just my opinion, I may have to take my money somewhere else. The thing is that in the past if I wanted a high-end saloon that put driving dynamics front and center there was only one real choice. But now, BMW have forced me to think of my next car as a sporting luxury saloon rather than a luxury sports saloon, and in doing so invite me to consider all the other sporting luxury saloons, of which there are many. Simply put, if I'm buying luxury, why would I put BMW at the top of the list, because the current Jags, Lexus and maybe even Merc, do it just as well or better?
10-25-2010, 12:40 AM
#38
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the F10 535i and 550i do not, it's only the 2007 E60 523i compared to the F10 523i by 0.01.
10-25-2010, 01:00 AM
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What are you talking about? "Crushing the E60"? Is that really necessary?I've been following some of these discussions and I have to say I'm amazed how restrained and patient some of the members have been when you and a couple of others have trashed their existing cars. What's more surprising is that you seem to be basing all your arguments on reviews and data, rejecting others' more subjective responses on the basis that they are, well, subjective.A lot of people buy their cars based on subjective criteria. One of the other guys has been trying to point out, quite reasonably I think, that the subjective reason behind most 5-series owners' choice has always been that it has always been more overtly sporty than its rivals. Moving the balance towards a softer ride, must invite some of these people to question whether or not the new model is the car for them, because no matter how good it makes the car - in your opinion even better than the E60 - those improvements are in an area that many of us don't use for our subjective choice of car. It is perfectly fine if you value these traits higher than the more sporting dynamics of the outgoing model, and I'm sure you will be very happy with your car for years with very good reason. But it's also fine if some others point out that they miss (or would miss) the character of the older model. They aren't any more wrong than you are.BMW have obviously calculated that they will gain more new purchasers than they will lose existing owners if it is felt that the balance has gone wrong, and that is a commercial decision that I'm not qualified to judge. But there is no doubt in my mind that lose existing owners they must, because I'm one of them. Having owned three E60s, I won't be buying an F10 to replace my current car in the next few months. That's not because it's not a good car - it certainly is - but because it's just not my cup of tea. It does feel more comfortable, but it doesn't make me grin, and that is very important to me. I hated the looks of the E60 when it was released, but when I drove one I was hooked, and the looks grew on me. I don't dislike the F10's looks (not very adventurous, but after all the criticism of the Bangle years, I see why BMW have toned things down) but just didn't get it when I drove it.And that's a problem for BMW, because while it's just my opinion, I may have to take my money somewhere else. The thing is that in the past if I wanted a high-end saloon that put driving dynamics front and center there was only one real choice. But now, BMW have forced me to think of my next car as a sporting luxury saloon rather than a luxury sports saloon, and in doing so invite me to consider all the other sporting luxury saloons, of which there are many. Simply put, if I'm buying luxury, why would I put BMW at the top of the list, because the current Jags, Lexus and maybe even Merc, do it just as well or better?
check this out. As regards the "objective bantering" between Shebs and I, do you have objections to this??
As for the E60 550i vs the f10 550i https://5series.net/forums/topic/105...st__p__1256832
Good ending, which is the king in this class and for which engine? Jag, Lexus, Audi or the Merc?
10-25-2010, 01:01 AM
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