X5d vs 535xiT/6 opinions and reasons for which choice?
07-13-2011, 08:10 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Trying to compare for future purchase.
There are a few ways to compare these so please leave out past models of x5 that are less comparable. Specifically x5d vs 6 spd manual wagon because the merits of a 6 spd will often outweigh the suv for many people, whereas the "d" will do the same on the x5d for other people.
Top two would be driving dynamics and mpg because cargo space, hauling* ability and ground clearance are so close. (I do think the x5 is at least rated to haul more weight but not by much and the Touring rear air suspension auto leveling itself helps immensely to get the most out of the car. Compared to our Audi, it handles the same rear cargo far better due to zero sag. Not to forget, the cargo floor in the bmw is built to actually hold some weight with it's supports underneath and split design.)
Towing: is of course better on the X5 but it's no "tow rig" either like something a little bigger (Range Rover, LR3/4) although I'm not sure why.
Mpg: x5d should be able to hold 30 mpg at 60-70 in average conditions. Any higher speed results in less mpg on any vehicle but the x5 ought to suffer more from higher speed than the Touring due to larger frontal area/wind drag. At 60-65-70 our wagon can hold 25 mpg on an out and back 90 mile drive along the highway, rolling terrain, rough pavement. I would expect the x5d to achieve 30mpg ~ 20% better. One caveat is that my 535 has the Dinan Stage 2 software and the exhaust. These things may actually allow higher mpg if you are going for that because there is more boost added to the system which does not use fuel. Adding anything while using less ought to be more efficient, you just have to drive nicely
"fun factor": the 6spd and low center of gravity certainly go to the wagon but if equipped with the optional dynamic suspension upgrades, the x5 can be quite fun for it's size/height. The e61 is "fun", and in a 6 spd, more fun to me than an auto would be, however it's still wider, longer, less agile than our Audi and some people would think the "big" e61 shouldn't even be compared to a tighter handling smaller platform like the Audi, yet they are both wagons so when we added the bmw, the comparison is hard not to contemplate .... maybe an x5 in diesel would have made more sense...that line of thinking is nearly endless though.
Once we set your mind on "an suv is a good idea", then I want it to be more "capable", meaning, able to go more places requiring higher ground clearance for snow or rutted out double track, have a low range transfer case and even a rear locking differential on demand. All of a sudden you are in a VW Touareg tdi with air suspension and the above drivetrain but way less of everything else I love about the bmw in general
The only way to combine the desires (in our US market) is to go to gasoline, Range Rover Full size, LR4, Mercedes G, Land Cruiser, etc. The Audi Q7tdi, when equipped with air suspension, is marginally more "capable" than the X5d simply due to higher ground clearance, but like the x5d, it's still a tall "car/suv", not a 4x4 or even soft-4x4 like the previous generation Touareg v10tdi/v6tdi...or Porsche Cayenne.
Retaining a diesel for mpg range and "feel good" carbon footprint, we are highly limited in the US market.
So, I have begun thinking to allow the 4x4 remain it's own category and it's own separate vehicle. Mainly because I have one already, a 2004 Discovery II which is set up nicely for bumping about off road. This idea allows me to let that part go, and focus on getting the most out of the vehicle we use the most, which is high shared mileage travel and commuting up to roughly 40,000-50,000 miles per year. (combined commute and big cross country road trips and frequent weekend 400 mile trips)
How else can the wagon I have, 2008 535xiT 6 spd, win over the x5d?
Cost: bought the wagon cpo last fall, therefor didn't spend the sticker price of $67,000 but a new 2011 x5d, with my spec, would msrp $75,000.... that more than offsets any mpg benefit so this may end up having to be put off a few years, waiting for a lightly used 2011 fully loaded that I could buy for $20k -$30k under original msrp.
Until we are ready so sell the Audi, which in itself is hard to let go being such an emotionally fun driving experience, there may be no room for the "ultimate" travel vehicle.
There are a few ways to compare these so please leave out past models of x5 that are less comparable. Specifically x5d vs 6 spd manual wagon because the merits of a 6 spd will often outweigh the suv for many people, whereas the "d" will do the same on the x5d for other people.
Top two would be driving dynamics and mpg because cargo space, hauling* ability and ground clearance are so close. (I do think the x5 is at least rated to haul more weight but not by much and the Touring rear air suspension auto leveling itself helps immensely to get the most out of the car. Compared to our Audi, it handles the same rear cargo far better due to zero sag. Not to forget, the cargo floor in the bmw is built to actually hold some weight with it's supports underneath and split design.)
Towing: is of course better on the X5 but it's no "tow rig" either like something a little bigger (Range Rover, LR3/4) although I'm not sure why.
Mpg: x5d should be able to hold 30 mpg at 60-70 in average conditions. Any higher speed results in less mpg on any vehicle but the x5 ought to suffer more from higher speed than the Touring due to larger frontal area/wind drag. At 60-65-70 our wagon can hold 25 mpg on an out and back 90 mile drive along the highway, rolling terrain, rough pavement. I would expect the x5d to achieve 30mpg ~ 20% better. One caveat is that my 535 has the Dinan Stage 2 software and the exhaust. These things may actually allow higher mpg if you are going for that because there is more boost added to the system which does not use fuel. Adding anything while using less ought to be more efficient, you just have to drive nicely
"fun factor": the 6spd and low center of gravity certainly go to the wagon but if equipped with the optional dynamic suspension upgrades, the x5 can be quite fun for it's size/height. The e61 is "fun", and in a 6 spd, more fun to me than an auto would be, however it's still wider, longer, less agile than our Audi and some people would think the "big" e61 shouldn't even be compared to a tighter handling smaller platform like the Audi, yet they are both wagons so when we added the bmw, the comparison is hard not to contemplate .... maybe an x5 in diesel would have made more sense...that line of thinking is nearly endless though.
Once we set your mind on "an suv is a good idea", then I want it to be more "capable", meaning, able to go more places requiring higher ground clearance for snow or rutted out double track, have a low range transfer case and even a rear locking differential on demand. All of a sudden you are in a VW Touareg tdi with air suspension and the above drivetrain but way less of everything else I love about the bmw in general
The only way to combine the desires (in our US market) is to go to gasoline, Range Rover Full size, LR4, Mercedes G, Land Cruiser, etc. The Audi Q7tdi, when equipped with air suspension, is marginally more "capable" than the X5d simply due to higher ground clearance, but like the x5d, it's still a tall "car/suv", not a 4x4 or even soft-4x4 like the previous generation Touareg v10tdi/v6tdi...or Porsche Cayenne.Retaining a diesel for mpg range and "feel good" carbon footprint, we are highly limited in the US market.
So, I have begun thinking to allow the 4x4 remain it's own category and it's own separate vehicle. Mainly because I have one already, a 2004 Discovery II which is set up nicely for bumping about off road. This idea allows me to let that part go, and focus on getting the most out of the vehicle we use the most, which is high shared mileage travel and commuting up to roughly 40,000-50,000 miles per year. (combined commute and big cross country road trips and frequent weekend 400 mile trips)
How else can the wagon I have, 2008 535xiT 6 spd, win over the x5d?
Cost: bought the wagon cpo last fall, therefor didn't spend the sticker price of $67,000 but a new 2011 x5d, with my spec, would msrp $75,000.... that more than offsets any mpg benefit so this may end up having to be put off a few years, waiting for a lightly used 2011 fully loaded that I could buy for $20k -$30k under original msrp.
Until we are ready so sell the Audi, which in itself is hard to let go being such an emotionally fun driving experience, there may be no room for the "ultimate" travel vehicle.
07-13-2011, 09:35 PM
#2
Members
Having just traded my X5 4.8i for the 535xiT, here's my .02:
TOWING: I've towed 5,000 lbs boats with Suburbans, Tahoes, a rented current gen Pathfinder, a Wrangler, and the X5 4.8i. The X5 is as good as the Tahoe at that tow weight (5k). I can't imagine why the Range Rover would be any better. The Suburban is best only b/c of it's even longer wheelbase. Particularly with the 315/35/20 tires in the back, the X5 doesn't get pushed around at all.
FUN: The X5 isn't. Yes, it handles well, but watch Clarkson's review of the X5M on Top Gear and you'll get the idea. Sure, it corners hard, but... it's much more surprising than fun. I had the 4.8i with the sport package and 20's, and needless to say it's utterly useless offroad. Aside from towing, it's a wide, cumbersome car that corners hard, but isn't really any fun. Oh, and that F*&KING TRANSMISSION!!! Try lining up a trailer to park it sometime, and opening the drivers door to get a better view looking back; It SLAMS itself into park the instant you open the door, never mind whether you're still moving. HUGELY annoying, that.
COMFORT: For long distances, the optional infinitely adjustable seats are a must. I have them in my 535xiT, but had the 'sport' seats in the X5. The X5 sport seats weren't comfortable on long drives. The 535xiT seems far more comfortable at high speeds as well, due to it's superior aerodynamic profile. It also tramlines less and is much better at cutting through traffic when need be. The 535xiT also seems more solidly screwed together.
ECONOMICS: Diesel is more expensive than premium gas. The mileage advantage of the X5d is a moot point over the 535xiT. Diesel being more expensive, you'll spend the same or more driving the X5d. Your insurance will also be more, and with the possible exception of trailering (2% of the time?) you'll enjoy driving the 535xiT FAR more. the 535 is rated to tow something like 4,400 lbs in europe (max speed 55, trailer shocks and brakes mandatory). Depending on the size of the trailer you tow, you may not even need an SUV. Add to that the higher purchase price of the '11 X5 and the fact that it will be replaced in a couple years, and the overall cost of owning the X5 will be at least triple what holding onto your 535xiT will be - especially a manual version.
The only reasons I can see to own the X5d over the 535 are if you truly need the towing capacity, but don't plan to go off road, or need a third seat. Otherwise, the X5d is an inferior choice in every other regard.
As you also already know, if you do plan to go offroad and want some semblance of frugality, buy an '09 Touareg TDi with a locking rear diff. If you need more towing capacity, buy the V10 '08 TDi. For the price of a used '09 Touareg TDi, you can keep your 535xiT and buy the VW for tow duty when needed, vs a new X5d.
TOWING: I've towed 5,000 lbs boats with Suburbans, Tahoes, a rented current gen Pathfinder, a Wrangler, and the X5 4.8i. The X5 is as good as the Tahoe at that tow weight (5k). I can't imagine why the Range Rover would be any better. The Suburban is best only b/c of it's even longer wheelbase. Particularly with the 315/35/20 tires in the back, the X5 doesn't get pushed around at all.
FUN: The X5 isn't. Yes, it handles well, but watch Clarkson's review of the X5M on Top Gear and you'll get the idea. Sure, it corners hard, but... it's much more surprising than fun. I had the 4.8i with the sport package and 20's, and needless to say it's utterly useless offroad. Aside from towing, it's a wide, cumbersome car that corners hard, but isn't really any fun. Oh, and that F*&KING TRANSMISSION!!! Try lining up a trailer to park it sometime, and opening the drivers door to get a better view looking back; It SLAMS itself into park the instant you open the door, never mind whether you're still moving. HUGELY annoying, that.
COMFORT: For long distances, the optional infinitely adjustable seats are a must. I have them in my 535xiT, but had the 'sport' seats in the X5. The X5 sport seats weren't comfortable on long drives. The 535xiT seems far more comfortable at high speeds as well, due to it's superior aerodynamic profile. It also tramlines less and is much better at cutting through traffic when need be. The 535xiT also seems more solidly screwed together.
ECONOMICS: Diesel is more expensive than premium gas. The mileage advantage of the X5d is a moot point over the 535xiT. Diesel being more expensive, you'll spend the same or more driving the X5d. Your insurance will also be more, and with the possible exception of trailering (2% of the time?) you'll enjoy driving the 535xiT FAR more. the 535 is rated to tow something like 4,400 lbs in europe (max speed 55, trailer shocks and brakes mandatory). Depending on the size of the trailer you tow, you may not even need an SUV. Add to that the higher purchase price of the '11 X5 and the fact that it will be replaced in a couple years, and the overall cost of owning the X5 will be at least triple what holding onto your 535xiT will be - especially a manual version.
The only reasons I can see to own the X5d over the 535 are if you truly need the towing capacity, but don't plan to go off road, or need a third seat. Otherwise, the X5d is an inferior choice in every other regard.
As you also already know, if you do plan to go offroad and want some semblance of frugality, buy an '09 Touareg TDi with a locking rear diff. If you need more towing capacity, buy the V10 '08 TDi. For the price of a used '09 Touareg TDi, you can keep your 535xiT and buy the VW for tow duty when needed, vs a new X5d.
07-14-2011, 12:41 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
All very good points.
While I really dig the Touareg, especially in the V10 tdi model, I guess it's still too close to being a "wagon" which we have covered pretty well. Thus the direction toward real 4x4 awesomeness that the G provides. Yes, it will be "forever", for real, not just for-awhile
At this point I can just sell the LR3, and buy nothing...OMG....
I have the nicely started project 2004 Discovery, slight spring lift, onboard air, dual battery, tinted, 16" wheeled x 32" bfg tires, and the rack and awning system coming off the LR3 along with associated fuel can holder, roof tent, etc. The Disco is paid off, gets almost the same mpg as a new v8 of any kind, and is sitting there ready to go. I could spend a small amount on ARB lockers and an ARB bumper + winch, some underbody plating, and still not have that much into it. It ought to last years if only used for required trips. It will also tow an Airstream just fine, at least the length we would get (16'-19').
In fact, I think the BMW wagon will tow a 16' Bambi if we are careful about loading it. (fyi, 16' Bambi GVWR 3500 lb, I understand that is loaded/wet, etc.)
Meanwhile, I wait for the G55 to be reborn as the G63, supposedly occurring for 2013 because they are dropping the current 5.5L AMG engine in all models replacing it with the new twin turbo M157 engine from AMG. It is proven to be 25% higher fuel economy (in an SL, 19mpg to 26mpg!) and is mated to a new high torque allowable 7 spd transmission.
My ONLY reservation is that the current, outgoing version, is the totally proven engine and 5 spd transmission for since 2005. It's reliable, bulletproof, and people are taking it up past 200,000 miles with no real issues. New, these darn G55's are $125k, buy-able for about $119k. Of course waiting nets you about $10k per year in the first 1-2 years. Then it's "used" though, and in what way you won't know for sure. About this I wouldn't care if the idea weren't to be the last suv!
While I really dig the Touareg, especially in the V10 tdi model, I guess it's still too close to being a "wagon" which we have covered pretty well. Thus the direction toward real 4x4 awesomeness that the G provides. Yes, it will be "forever", for real, not just for-awhile
At this point I can just sell the LR3, and buy nothing...OMG....
I have the nicely started project 2004 Discovery, slight spring lift, onboard air, dual battery, tinted, 16" wheeled x 32" bfg tires, and the rack and awning system coming off the LR3 along with associated fuel can holder, roof tent, etc. The Disco is paid off, gets almost the same mpg as a new v8 of any kind, and is sitting there ready to go. I could spend a small amount on ARB lockers and an ARB bumper + winch, some underbody plating, and still not have that much into it. It ought to last years if only used for required trips. It will also tow an Airstream just fine, at least the length we would get (16'-19').
In fact, I think the BMW wagon will tow a 16' Bambi if we are careful about loading it. (fyi, 16' Bambi GVWR 3500 lb, I understand that is loaded/wet, etc.)
Meanwhile, I wait for the G55 to be reborn as the G63, supposedly occurring for 2013 because they are dropping the current 5.5L AMG engine in all models replacing it with the new twin turbo M157 engine from AMG. It is proven to be 25% higher fuel economy (in an SL, 19mpg to 26mpg!) and is mated to a new high torque allowable 7 spd transmission.
My ONLY reservation is that the current, outgoing version, is the totally proven engine and 5 spd transmission for since 2005. It's reliable, bulletproof, and people are taking it up past 200,000 miles with no real issues. New, these darn G55's are $125k, buy-able for about $119k. Of course waiting nets you about $10k per year in the first 1-2 years. Then it's "used" though, and in what way you won't know for sure. About this I wouldn't care if the idea weren't to be the last suv!
07-14-2011, 02:07 PM
#4
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My Ride: 2010 535 xi - M Sport Pkg & other goodies
I have an idea! You two since you live close to each other at times (Carolina, right?), should just share your toys, since you seem to have the same tastes too! 
The G63 engine I noticed you said "turbo"... Mmmm... turbos like tuning...
So a used G only loses $10k a year in depreciation? Wow. Pretty good resale value on those. I thought like 15% a year in the first couple of years is the norm?
The G63 engine I noticed you said "turbo"... Mmmm... turbos like tuning...
So a used G only loses $10k a year in depreciation? Wow. Pretty good resale value on those. I thought like 15% a year in the first couple of years is the norm?
07-14-2011, 07:11 PM
#5
Members
All of the above said, sell the LR3, and use the Disco for the time being (2-3 years). At that point the G55 will be cheaper, or the G63 will be available with better (snicker) fuel economy. I just like the turbo aspect of the G63 - no power loss in mountains, and more fuel efficient. I'm sure it will retain the rest of its military grade 4x4 system, and if it doesn't, the G55 will be that much cheaper by then.
As for what any used G55 was used for... pulease: Odds are (1) clubbing (2) Whole Foods (3)Barney's Saks or Nordis. The odds of ANY G55 being put to any kind of hard use is pretty remote. Muddin? lol. Not so much. Buy from a private party, or a dealer who will give you the former owner's contact info (i.e. a dealer trade vs auction purchase). Or buy one that's MB CPO and get it checked out for bodywork first.
That's what I'd do.
As for what any used G55 was used for... pulease: Odds are (1) clubbing (2) Whole Foods (3)Barney's Saks or Nordis. The odds of ANY G55 being put to any kind of hard use is pretty remote. Muddin? lol. Not so much. Buy from a private party, or a dealer who will give you the former owner's contact info (i.e. a dealer trade vs auction purchase). Or buy one that's MB CPO and get it checked out for bodywork first.
That's what I'd do.
07-14-2011, 08:21 PM
#6
Senior Members
Thread Starter
I have an idea! You two since you live close to each other at times (Carolina, right?), should just share your toys, since you seem to have the same tastes too!
The G63 engine I noticed you said "turbo"... Mmmm... turbos like tuning...
So a used G only loses $10k a year in depreciation? Wow. Pretty good resale value on those. I thought like 15% a year in the first couple of years is the norm?
The G63 engine I noticed you said "turbo"... Mmmm... turbos like tuning...
So a used G only loses $10k a year in depreciation? Wow. Pretty good resale value on those. I thought like 15% a year in the first couple of years is the norm?
07-14-2011, 08:26 PM
#7
Senior Members
Thread Starter
All of the above said, sell the LR3, and use the Disco for the time being (2-3 years). At that point the G55 will be cheaper, or the G63 will be available with better (snicker) fuel economy. I just like the turbo aspect of the G63 - no power loss in mountains, and more fuel efficient. I'm sure it will retain the rest of its military grade 4x4 system, and if it doesn't, the G55 will be that much cheaper by then.
As for what any used G55 was used for... pulease: Odds are (1) clubbing (2) Whole Foods (3)Barney's Saks or Nordis. The odds of ANY G55 being put to any kind of hard use is pretty remote. Muddin? lol. Not so much. Buy from a private party, or a dealer who will give you the former owner's contact info (i.e. a dealer trade vs auction purchase). Or buy one that's MB CPO and get it checked out for bodywork first.
That's what I'd do.
As for what any used G55 was used for... pulease: Odds are (1) clubbing (2) Whole Foods (3)Barney's Saks or Nordis. The odds of ANY G55 being put to any kind of hard use is pretty remote. Muddin? lol. Not so much. Buy from a private party, or a dealer who will give you the former owner's contact info (i.e. a dealer trade vs auction purchase). Or buy one that's MB CPO and get it checked out for bodywork first.
That's what I'd do.
The G55"k" is a supercharged engine, and therefor also provides almost no loss of power at altitude. It is proven for many years now. I guess we'll see but I'm very on the fence about all of it. I've just about had enough thinking about it entirely.
Thanks for the thoughtful input!
07-14-2011, 08:29 PM
#8
Members
What's the low-down on the Disco's? I really want a Disco II with the 4.6L and coil springs, but I hear the gas mileage is abysmal and the reliability is worse. I looked at one locally, and the passenger's seat was broken (electrics wouldn't move). From what I've read, the head gaskets (?) seem to disintegrate by around 100k, and most of the seals in the driveline are suspect as time wears on. Ergo they're money pits. Are there just a few things to look out for, or is it pretty much the entire car?
How bad is the gas mileage, really?
Appreciate your insights, given as you have so many miles on these.
EDIT: I did find this site quite informative regarding 'what to look out for'
How bad is the gas mileage, really?
Appreciate your insights, given as you have so many miles on these.
EDIT: I did find this site quite informative regarding 'what to look out for'
07-15-2011, 06:04 AM
#9
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Thread Starter
my mom gets 16 but she drives THE speed limit, or less. I get about 13.5-14.5 (on stock 18" wheels and tires (255/55x18) but I do not drive the speed limit on the highway. It now has bfg at 265/75x16 and I don't know how they will affect the mpg but while they are heavier, they are also considerably larger and give more distance per engine rev so could work out helping the fuel economy if the speed is appropriately not too fast. not being a sport sedan, i don't drive it like one. in fact i am the last off the line to the next light, i have no idea why so many people must "floor it now!" when driving around town. are there pregnant moms being driven to the hospital or what?!
I have a stack on the 96 disco but i don't recall the times of when gaskets and things got done, however it was later than 100k and that 96 has a different engine and driveline.
the 04 has not had anything major yet. at the current prices for a lower mileage clean one, functioning seats and all, makes the overall cost not bad for what is otherwise quite rugged and very capable 4x4 design. plus, if you like interior cargo volume, it's huge and the 2nd row seats are easy to remove if it suits your needs.
to me it's best to have the same tech see it each time for an oil change to look over everything else as a preventative measure. probably why the 96 gave 225k before needing help to get home.
I have a stack on the 96 disco but i don't recall the times of when gaskets and things got done, however it was later than 100k and that 96 has a different engine and driveline.
the 04 has not had anything major yet. at the current prices for a lower mileage clean one, functioning seats and all, makes the overall cost not bad for what is otherwise quite rugged and very capable 4x4 design. plus, if you like interior cargo volume, it's huge and the 2nd row seats are easy to remove if it suits your needs.
to me it's best to have the same tech see it each time for an oil change to look over everything else as a preventative measure. probably why the 96 gave 225k before needing help to get home.
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