18", 19" or 20" wheels?
11-04-2008, 11:10 AM
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I went through the same dilemma. My TOP priority would be performance.
20's look great and although it is possible to find very light weight 20's that can fit the bill....You would have to run 25 series rear tires to maintain stock overall diameter. 19's seem to be a better fit when it comes to just performance.
I ended up weighing the factory 124's with run flats (62 lbs each rear!!!) and decided I would NOT go heavier than that with my new wheels. Ideally I wanted to go LIGHTER. Also, I did not want to increase the overall tire diameter either (which throws off gearing) and I refuse to run 25 series rear tires to achieve stock overall diameter on 20's...soo I learned pretty early on that 19's would be the best way to go for increased performance (while still stepping up a size for better looks).
In the end I went 19's....19x10 rear with 275-30-19 and 19x8.5 front with 245-35-19. I ended up shaving off 10lbs per corner. 6 lbs less per wheel and 4 lbs less per tire!!! and I still have stock overall diameter.
Below is a great article I found when doing research regarding wheel/tire weight vs performance...
Unsprung Weight and Inertia
Unsprung weight and polar moment of inertia. Sounds like physics mumbo-jumbo. However, this is key to understanding the pros and cons of plus sizing your wheels and tires.
Unsprung Weight
Unsprung weight is the term used to describe weight that is not damped on the vehicle. The wheels, tires, brakes, and some suspension components are unsprung, whereas everything else is sprung. This buzz word is often thrown around with the implication that reducing a car's unsprung weight will make the car faster.
This is untrue. (Rotational inertia is what impacts speed.)
Decreasing a car's unsprung weight will increase its sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio, and that directly leads to improved ride quality. When your tire hits a bump in the road it sends a shock upwards into the chassis that must be absorbed. If it is a 3G shock, then the the chassis must absorb three times its unsprung weight. This jolt will cause transfer into the chassis, which causes the unpleasant feeling caused by hitting a speed bump. Cars with stiffer springs and harder bushings transfer this jolt more directly, which is why they seem harsher.
If the car has 80lbs of unsprung weight per tire, than a 4G shock could send 320lbs of force upwards per tire. That's 640lbs per axle hitting you from below to be damped in just one or a few inches of suspension travel, which can be a lot. This is why some sports and most racing cars use forged suspension parts- it reduces unsprung weight, so the suspension does not need to counteract as large of a force. Dropping the unsprung weight by 25% (admittedly a difficult thing to do) would decrease the upward force the springs need to counteract by 160lbs per axle, which in turn can allow the use of slightly firmer springs (reducing body roll) without a degregation of the stock ride quality. This is also the most significant drawback of solid rear axles suspensions- they add the entire weight of the differential and driveshafts as unsprung weight- that's usually 80lbs or more!
The easiest way to decrease unsprung weight for the tuner is to use lighter wheels and tires. While a steel 16" wheel can weigh 22lbs or more, a cast or forged 16" wheel could be found 6lbs or 9lbs lighter, respectively. Lightweight tires, such as those from Continental or Toyo (or Hoosier for racing slicks) can further reduce unsprung weight. Saving just 8lbs of unsprung weight is an improvement of 10% or more on most cars, which can make a marked improvement in ride and responsiveness.
Rotational Inertia
While often considered to be synonymous with unsprung weight, rotational inertia is a different term altogether. It is possible to have a heavy wheel that has little inertia, or a lightweight wheel with lots of inertia. A wheel and tire with a lot of inertia takes a greater amount of torque to slow or accelerate, making the car sluggish.
Have a pencil in front of you? Try this: hold the pencil upright by its eraser. Now spin the pencil in your fingers as if you were trying to make a dot on a sheet of paper. It takes almost zero effort to spin the pencil this way, right? Now hold it the pencil's center, between your finger and thumb. Rotate the pencil back and forth, as if you were shaking it to hear loose parts. Feel how it takes more effort to rotate it this way? That is because the mass you are rotating is further away from its center of rotation. Ever notice how an ice skater or karate man tucks their leg in to rotate faster? It's the same concept. If you don't feel the difference, try the same experiment with a larger object such as a broom handle or a baseball bat. Spinning a broom handle like a propeller will take more effort than turning it like a giant drill.
Likewise, the further a wheel and tire's mass is from the axle, the more torque will be required to accelerate it. If a car has 16" wheels and those wheels are replaced with 17" wheels of identical weight, the amount of inertia that wheel carries will probably have risen between 7 to 8 percent. Going up another inch would add another 7 to 8 percent, and so forth. It adds up quickly.
That's assuming the larger wheels weigh the same, which is often impossible. With a larger diameter wheel comes exponentially more surface area needed to create the outer edge of the rim, which is the worst possible place to add weight. Increasing wheel diameter AND increasing weight (even if only a modest amount) will produce rather noticable drawbacks- you can loose 1-2 car lengths (or more) in a 1/4 mile race. Going with wider wheels raises the amount of metal required too, although it does so only linearly.
However, the largest contributer on the entire car to rotational inertia is the tire. Tires are even further out from the axle than the wheel, and usually weigh more too. Some street tires weigh as much as 4 pounds less than their competitors through the use of lightweight materials. Hoosier racing tires, until recently, were made of fiberglass belts instead of steel for the purpose of weight savings (until new regulations prohibited this). That mere four pounds per tire extra will require about the same amount of force to spin as it would take to carry a date riding shotgun! A small difference in tire weight can make a large difference in rotational inertia.
This is a compelling reason to run smaller diameter tires, as larger diameter tires have more inertia per pound and are heavier due to the increased amount of rubber. The weight and inertia savings of going to a skinnier tires is comparitively smaller than decreasing diameter.
Of course, going to a skinnier, softer wheel and tire combination can sacrifice handling (detailed in another article), so it's up to the tuner to find the proper balance for their car.
Do the Math
Andy Welter has created a spreadsheet for calculating the gains or losses of various wheel and tire combinations, found here:
http://www.mazda6tech.com/files/rotational.xls
Kevin K has revised the original spreadsheet to more correct specifications. Remember that the weight calculation is PER wheel/tire.
http://www.mazda6tech.com/files/wheel_inertia.xls
Article is from: http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?...d=16&Itemid=50
20's look great and although it is possible to find very light weight 20's that can fit the bill....You would have to run 25 series rear tires to maintain stock overall diameter. 19's seem to be a better fit when it comes to just performance.
I ended up weighing the factory 124's with run flats (62 lbs each rear!!!) and decided I would NOT go heavier than that with my new wheels. Ideally I wanted to go LIGHTER. Also, I did not want to increase the overall tire diameter either (which throws off gearing) and I refuse to run 25 series rear tires to achieve stock overall diameter on 20's...soo I learned pretty early on that 19's would be the best way to go for increased performance (while still stepping up a size for better looks).
In the end I went 19's....19x10 rear with 275-30-19 and 19x8.5 front with 245-35-19. I ended up shaving off 10lbs per corner. 6 lbs less per wheel and 4 lbs less per tire!!! and I still have stock overall diameter.
Below is a great article I found when doing research regarding wheel/tire weight vs performance...
Unsprung Weight and Inertia
Unsprung weight and polar moment of inertia. Sounds like physics mumbo-jumbo. However, this is key to understanding the pros and cons of plus sizing your wheels and tires.
Unsprung Weight
Unsprung weight is the term used to describe weight that is not damped on the vehicle. The wheels, tires, brakes, and some suspension components are unsprung, whereas everything else is sprung. This buzz word is often thrown around with the implication that reducing a car's unsprung weight will make the car faster.
This is untrue. (Rotational inertia is what impacts speed.)
Decreasing a car's unsprung weight will increase its sprung-to-unsprung weight ratio, and that directly leads to improved ride quality. When your tire hits a bump in the road it sends a shock upwards into the chassis that must be absorbed. If it is a 3G shock, then the the chassis must absorb three times its unsprung weight. This jolt will cause transfer into the chassis, which causes the unpleasant feeling caused by hitting a speed bump. Cars with stiffer springs and harder bushings transfer this jolt more directly, which is why they seem harsher.
If the car has 80lbs of unsprung weight per tire, than a 4G shock could send 320lbs of force upwards per tire. That's 640lbs per axle hitting you from below to be damped in just one or a few inches of suspension travel, which can be a lot. This is why some sports and most racing cars use forged suspension parts- it reduces unsprung weight, so the suspension does not need to counteract as large of a force. Dropping the unsprung weight by 25% (admittedly a difficult thing to do) would decrease the upward force the springs need to counteract by 160lbs per axle, which in turn can allow the use of slightly firmer springs (reducing body roll) without a degregation of the stock ride quality. This is also the most significant drawback of solid rear axles suspensions- they add the entire weight of the differential and driveshafts as unsprung weight- that's usually 80lbs or more!
The easiest way to decrease unsprung weight for the tuner is to use lighter wheels and tires. While a steel 16" wheel can weigh 22lbs or more, a cast or forged 16" wheel could be found 6lbs or 9lbs lighter, respectively. Lightweight tires, such as those from Continental or Toyo (or Hoosier for racing slicks) can further reduce unsprung weight. Saving just 8lbs of unsprung weight is an improvement of 10% or more on most cars, which can make a marked improvement in ride and responsiveness.
Rotational Inertia
While often considered to be synonymous with unsprung weight, rotational inertia is a different term altogether. It is possible to have a heavy wheel that has little inertia, or a lightweight wheel with lots of inertia. A wheel and tire with a lot of inertia takes a greater amount of torque to slow or accelerate, making the car sluggish.
Have a pencil in front of you? Try this: hold the pencil upright by its eraser. Now spin the pencil in your fingers as if you were trying to make a dot on a sheet of paper. It takes almost zero effort to spin the pencil this way, right? Now hold it the pencil's center, between your finger and thumb. Rotate the pencil back and forth, as if you were shaking it to hear loose parts. Feel how it takes more effort to rotate it this way? That is because the mass you are rotating is further away from its center of rotation. Ever notice how an ice skater or karate man tucks their leg in to rotate faster? It's the same concept. If you don't feel the difference, try the same experiment with a larger object such as a broom handle or a baseball bat. Spinning a broom handle like a propeller will take more effort than turning it like a giant drill.
Likewise, the further a wheel and tire's mass is from the axle, the more torque will be required to accelerate it. If a car has 16" wheels and those wheels are replaced with 17" wheels of identical weight, the amount of inertia that wheel carries will probably have risen between 7 to 8 percent. Going up another inch would add another 7 to 8 percent, and so forth. It adds up quickly.
That's assuming the larger wheels weigh the same, which is often impossible. With a larger diameter wheel comes exponentially more surface area needed to create the outer edge of the rim, which is the worst possible place to add weight. Increasing wheel diameter AND increasing weight (even if only a modest amount) will produce rather noticable drawbacks- you can loose 1-2 car lengths (or more) in a 1/4 mile race. Going with wider wheels raises the amount of metal required too, although it does so only linearly.
However, the largest contributer on the entire car to rotational inertia is the tire. Tires are even further out from the axle than the wheel, and usually weigh more too. Some street tires weigh as much as 4 pounds less than their competitors through the use of lightweight materials. Hoosier racing tires, until recently, were made of fiberglass belts instead of steel for the purpose of weight savings (until new regulations prohibited this). That mere four pounds per tire extra will require about the same amount of force to spin as it would take to carry a date riding shotgun! A small difference in tire weight can make a large difference in rotational inertia.
This is a compelling reason to run smaller diameter tires, as larger diameter tires have more inertia per pound and are heavier due to the increased amount of rubber. The weight and inertia savings of going to a skinnier tires is comparitively smaller than decreasing diameter.
Of course, going to a skinnier, softer wheel and tire combination can sacrifice handling (detailed in another article), so it's up to the tuner to find the proper balance for their car.
Do the Math
Andy Welter has created a spreadsheet for calculating the gains or losses of various wheel and tire combinations, found here:
http://www.mazda6tech.com/files/rotational.xls
Kevin K has revised the original spreadsheet to more correct specifications. Remember that the weight calculation is PER wheel/tire.
http://www.mazda6tech.com/files/wheel_inertia.xls
Article is from: http://www.mazda6tech.com/index.php?...d=16&Itemid=50
11-04-2008, 11:21 AM
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20" and keep your stocks as a track setup.
11-04-2008, 11:27 AM
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If anybody has any 19" blacked out anythings (well, hot looking fairly lightweight good wheels anythings that is)with tires they want to sell at a good price, let me know....
Be careful here, a high quality wheel, that balances properly, is strong enough to absorb impacts, and has the correct center bore and offset is crucial to the cars performance.
I have had average wheels, replicas etc. They sucked IMO
If you buy used make sure the wheels are guaranteed true with a no questions asked return policy. People can get very frustrated with vibration problems when changing wheels.
I could not afford Dinan wheels either and was not happy with what I paid for my BBS LM's but they are worth it. Going from OEM 124's with Run Flats to BBS LM's with Michelin Pilots completely transformed my car, and I mean completely...
11-04-2008, 03:02 PM
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Be careful here, a high quality wheel, that balances properly, is strong enough to absorb impacts, and has the correct center bore and offset is crucial to the cars performance.
I have had average wheels, replicas etc. They sucked IMO
If you buy used make sure the wheels are guaranteed true with a no questions asked return policy. People can get very frustrated with vibration problems when changing wheels.
I could not afford Dinan wheels either and was not happy with what I paid for my BBS LM's but they are worth it. Going from OEM 124's with Run Flats to BBS LM's with Michelin Pilots completely transformed my car, and I mean completely...
I have had average wheels, replicas etc. They sucked IMO
If you buy used make sure the wheels are guaranteed true with a no questions asked return policy. People can get very frustrated with vibration problems when changing wheels.
I could not afford Dinan wheels either and was not happy with what I paid for my BBS LM's but they are worth it. Going from OEM 124's with Run Flats to BBS LM's with Michelin Pilots completely transformed my car, and I mean completely...
I just need to make a decision soon because I really want out of these RFT's....
I'll see what pops up....
11-05-2008, 05:10 AM
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I just need to make a decision soon because I really want out of these RFT's....
I got out of the run flats within the first month of owning my 545i, they just ruined the car IMO. Seriously, if I could not have changed the tires I would have sold the car. I hated them.
The one thing that does confuse me though is I have had 3 series loaners with run flats that drive well (don't tramline) and have a decent ride. Maybe the size of our staggered rears has something to do with it?
11-05-2008, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by C's Bimmer' post='711394' date='Nov 3 2008, 08:08 PM
Since I just came from a day that was like a track day, I can tell you this. My 20's will NEVER go back to the event I just did this past weekend. I will only use my 19's for high performance driving from now on. That said, 20's are great for pimpin', but 19's are great for performance.
11-05-2008, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by C's Bimmer' post='711395' date='Nov 3 2008, 09:08 PM
Since I just came from a day that was like a track day, I can tell you this. My 20's will NEVER go back to the event I just did this past weekend. I will only use my 19's for high performance driving from now on. That said, 20's are great for pimpin', but 19's are great for performance.
I heard C bumps JayZ's Big Pimpin ridin on his 20 dubs.
+1 for 20's. Look great. I however bought mine a month or so ago and I have to wait till March to put them on. They are nice to look at though in my basement
I also have Eibach springs and I will probbaly be getting shocks as well. Thinking about putting them on for one season then replacing the shocks the next season. Hmm.
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