Value is subjective.

Performance can be measured.

Therefore, a value to performance equation will mean different things to different people.

I love BMW too, but being as objective as possible- when it comes to what you get for the money you spend, then Acura is the hands down leader in the near-luxury to mid-level luxury segment. The vehicles come fully loaded, and the only options you typically have are sunroof, DVD player, or Navigation system. Other than that, they are loaded, and they have stepped up their game when it comes to performance too. However, BMW and infiniti have the edge on Acura because they are RWD- however, with the SH-AWD available on the TL, RL, and MDX- their handling has improved a great deal on dry roads, and they can probably out perform everyone aside from maybe Subaru, and specific models of Audi, and VW when it comes to wet road handling.

Bang for the buck in the high end cars (7 series, S class, XJ, etc..), the LS460 has that wrapped up. This can all be measured in apples to apples terms of content and pricing, and can be additionally addressed long term with regard to cost of ownership areas like maintenance (Which BMW has improved on drastically with their scheduled maintenance covereage), fuel economy and resale value.

So, I'm loving the Bimmer right now. But, that's not to say the source of the engineering, makes one model significantly better than the other. One day, a friend of mine and I went out and drove the 7, the E and S, the Q45, and the LS430 the same day, within hours o feach other. The 7 and the S felt heavy and confidence inspiring- while the LS felt soft and light on it's feet. The Q was rock solid and felt good all around.

Today, the Q45 is no longer sold by Infiniti in the US. An equally good car that few took seriously enough to buy over the Lexus, or the German brands.

In terms of everyday driving, the gap between BMW and Kia in 2009, is far narrower than it weas in 1999. Everyone is getting better. Competition, long term value, and customer expectations are making that happen.

In 2009, the Hyundai Genesis V8 was voted car of the year, and in head to head comparisons, beat the E-class benz, the GS Lexus, the 5 series, and the Jan XF. While it did not win in every measurable performance area, overall, it had a higher score than everyone.

Hyundai???

Who wouldda thought it?

The gap is narrowing...

 

Texaz3, you're very easily offended, heaven forbid somebody doesn't love BMW as much as you do. Tone down the hostility, we're adults here aren't we?

This is your quote:

What is the definition of value to you then? "Performance for the money" and "at the price point" are value statements aren't they? Do you think that a 328 can compete with a G35 in an objective measure of performance or value? It's short 100 HP and leather is a $1000+option.

I never said BMW was crap. Thanks for making stuff up though. I did say that BMW was poor value for the money, and that I hate owning it. I didn't say that Infiniti was better, I said it was a better objective value. Again, argue the statements I made, not the ones you imagined I made.

I bought it because the subjective points are good. I like the styling, and I like how it drives. The price was higher than the M35x but I was willing to pay for the looks and handling. I don't trust Audi's electrics so the A6 is out. The GS is bland. When I bought my 530xi, I didn't know that the dealership service department was completely incompetent. I've only got 2 dealerships in my city, and they both suck. Like I said, I love driving it, I hate owning it. If another dealer opens in the future, or if I move to another city I'd consider a BMW again, but if you ask me if I regret it I would say "Yes" as of right now. This is my situation, in my city. If you've got a good dealership, then congrats, I wish I was so lucky.

Thanks for the advice, but how about I just find an independent shop to take care of my car? I love my car, you just imagined that I said otherwise. Why is it so hard for you to believe that Lexus treated me like gold, while BMW treated me like I shouldn't even step foot in their building?

I'm not nearly as old as you so I don't have as much experience with luxury cars, but value is simply what you get vs. what you pay. How much does "driving feel" cost? How much does "good styling" cost? Those are subjective measures and different for everyone, but BMW generally does well. I can tell you how much leather costs, how much GPS costs, heated and cooled seats, etc. Those are objective measures and can easily be compared. Objectively, BMW is a poor value because they cost more to get the same **quantifiable** things. You can argue that BMW's are good subjective values because that's an opinion, but to say that they're good objective values is just flat out wrong.

PS I'm only assuming your age from how many vehicles you've owned. Not making fun of you.

 

We're together on the dealerships, there's a reason why Lexus has such a great reputation for their dealerships.

Why does it piss you off that people compare "jap" cars to german ones? Volkswagens are german and terrible, I would never buy one again. My Hondas and Toyotas were great. I don't really care where it comes from, if it's a good car it's a good car. Why limit yourself based on country of origin?

 

A BMW is not the perfect car, but I think it is the most 'all-around' car, it does everything 90% of perfect, but the sum of all those 90%s is far greater then anything any other manufacturer can achieve right now. And for that reason, I find that many people who decide to move on from BMWs eventually regret it and think about returning to the brand.

 

Hi, I will not buy a BMW again. They are great to drive and fun but tons of problems all the time. Not mentioning thieves at BMW dealerships. Although I'm a big fan of BMW's, the last BMW I have is my current E61.

 

I'm with you there. There will always be 1 with me. I'm going to keep my current on as long as I can. Right now, I have 2.

 

I've switched to other makes a few times and invariably I come back to BMW. When you own one its easy to forget how its got that intangibly great driving feeling and everything just works in concert in terms of performance. It's only when you switch to another make's model when you realize that nothing out there is the full package (looks + performance+ handling + comfort) like most BMWs.

 

+100

 

That's why i'm saying is impossible to understand. VWs are terrible ? The Golf GTI is terrible ? the old corrado is terrible ? The Porsche's that haven't got the best reliability problems terrible ? I guess they are since you're looking for other things on cars and not what these have to offer. Sell the BMW and buy another Toyota then, believe me i don't think you're getting why people buy it.

And i do base it on country of origin because you should know by now that jap cars, german cars, italian cars etc have different character, different philosophy and culture behind them and is easily distinguishable. From there on is what you can actually appreciate and want from a car.

Now based on you a Ferrari is a crap car because is very unreliable and costs a fortune to maintain. The legendary Lancia Delta Integrale is a crap car for the same reason. Have you driven an Intergrale by any chance ? I actually had one and blew my mind away, i didn't care if it spent 1/3 of it's life on a garage.

That's why i get irritated, when someone compares something totally different like a BMW to a Honda because probably got one or the other for the wrong reasons.

And btw, i hear alot about Lexus reliability. I don't know what your experiences are in the US regarding Lexus, but in the UK Lexus cars do have quite a few electrical problems.

 

I had a 2002 Jetta and by the time I sold it in 2006 the plastic was peeling off the door handles on both the driver and passenger side. The steering column plastic was starting to crackle, and I don't even touch it there. The shift boot was getting threadbare at the top where my hand would rub it and at the base, where it was mounted. The plastic on the cup holder...button (lid?) was starting to peel. My window fell into my door. One of the knobs on the stereo fell off. This was a 4 year old car, after hearing about how "VW is better now, the reliability isn't like on the older ones." So yeah. To me, VW's are terrible. That doesn't mean they've never made a good car, but I wouldn't buy one again.

The Corrado was before my time, and the Golf GTI I'm assuming uses the same materials as the Jetta. The plastics that look great and feel nice new, then start to peel away a few years later. No thanks.

When did I say anything about reliability being the most important thing? Please don't put words in my mouth.

And you're comparing a 4 door BMW sedan and a VW to a 2 door, high end sports car? Are there alot of people in the UK that have Porsches as their **only** car? Because over here, they're generally second cars and weekend/summer playthings. It's not an apt comparison, I don't think anybody cross-shops a 5 series and a 911, or a Passat and a Cayman.

I get why people buy it, I just hate the dealer. I hate the dealer enough that I won't buy another one. What's so hard to understand?

Are germans incapable of making a solid, dead reliable car? That sounds silly, but you're essentially saying that the japanese are incapable of making a car with soul, which is equally silly.

What? Why do people keep making things up whole cloth and claiming them as my position? I didn't mention reliability in any of my posts, except to say that that's the reason I didn't get an A6. Nowhere did I say that BMW's are crap, and nowhere did I say that they're unreliable. I did say VW's are terrible, but didn't elaborate why in my original post. You created "my" position on reliability being the most important thing ever based on...what exactly? I won't comment further on Ferraris or Lancias, since you're only arguing against yourself, except to say.....Ferraris and the 5 series are not comparable in the least.

Lexus's are dead reliable, but on the bland side. I don't know of Lexus's having electrical problems but don't really care because reliability is not the driving reason why I'd buy another. I never said anything about Lexus reliability, I praised their dealership, and the way that I was treated there.