nickolas_g

I have been reading a number of articles about how ethanol absorbs water at an alarming rate. This is causing engine damage at a record level. This is a large concern for marine and boaters on the water but should this also be the case for our cars that are in such situations?



Did our tree hugging politicians thing about this before acting? Not to mention that it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to equate to one gallon of gas?


http://www.boatus.com/news/e10_0706.htm

ImolaRedM

I don't think ethanol absorbs water that isn't already in the tank. A boater may have been living with water in the tank before but with the addition of ethanol it gets absorbed or diluted more easily. Boaters would have more of a problem (at least at first) than cars due to the operating environment. I know boats have bilge vents but I'm not aware of boats with vapor locks like our cars. Think about what kind of idiot lights come on the dash of a power boat compared to your car if you forget to tightly lock the fuel filler cap. Not to mention that I would rather have a little water in my ethanol (if it was in the tank to begin with) than MTBE in my drinking water. The 10% ethanol solution has been around in many states for some time and it hasn't been much of a problem until now. I think the switch in many states like VA has surprised some.

dlevi67

Ethanol is hygroscopic, so it will absorb moisture from the atmosphere too. Clearly more of a problem on a boat, and relatively easy to solve with a couple of valves.

Don't forget that Brasilians have been running cars with ethanol for about 15 years, and they do keep running.

aybeesea

But like LPG and Diesel, there are differences to the "driving experience".

ABC

vern

Yes and less MPG.
cheers
vern

nickolas_g

Also, what is the Ethanol use/percentage in the EU or other parts of the world?

Ricracing

Dear nickolas_g ,

I'm glad that you have an intrest in the environment.

Please do not panic!

If the "Iranian US-gas problems" in late 70's did not learn you anything, this "small" environmental crises doesn't either.

Your, as all our E60's, are not ready for alcohol use in large amounts!
The discussions are about using a 1-3 % ethanol / 99-97 % gasoline mixture.

As we know today, the energy needed to produce ethanol is around 120% compared to mineral oils.

But the lobbiest are Arabic and US oil companies.

The thing is to understand, that a 530i uses less fuel than a 550i,
but a 530d, which is as efficent as a 540i, could be a option...

nickolas_g

Ricracing,

Thanks for your opinion. Yesterday I filled my tank with BP fuel that had 10%. Some have as high as 15%.

For the ignorant comment on the 120% energy needed for production of Ethanol the University of California Berkely performed a study that found that Ethanol is going to be "bad for the environment". You can check it out at

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/release...5_ethanol.shtml

By the way if you were not aware. University of California Berkeley is always had a extremely liberal political view at best. They are no friends of politicians or the middle east oil folks.

ImolaRedM

AFAIK, it's all 10% Ethanol in the US unless you're talking E85 and that's 85%. I haven't ever seen 15% offered at regular gas pumps anywhere along the east coast.

Also, as to the question of energy, I think it depends on what the source the ethanol came from. Corn isn't very efficient but the corn farmers have a strong lobby. About 90% of the ethanol in the US comes from corn. Brazil (Brasil) uses sugar cane and it's more efficient to produce. Even better might be sugar beets but I guess their lobby group isn't as powerful as the corn growers.

Ethanol has less energy than dinojuice (~35% less in ethanol) but then regular gas has been reformulated in almost every state so the differences in fuel use is small (<2%). In contrast, diesel has almost 40% more energy than gasoline.

Bottom line... ethanol can take in water... it's not likely to absorb much in a car. The fuel tanks, gas caps, and vapor recovery in modern cars are MUCH more advanced than what you find in pleasure boats. Countries like Brasil have been using ethanol for a lot longer. I don't think they even as strict as we are in the US in terms of vapor recovery and fuel caps so one might expect that they would have more problems with water than we do.

HughH

Good answer!!! Brasil had to cut down the % blend of ethanol to around 20%. The problem is that ethanol is highly corrosive. That was the main problem with marine usage of ethanol. A lot of boats were made with fiberglass gas tanks and ethanol just ate the fiberglass. Another problem is that you cannot deliver ethanol in the same gas trucks. They have to be delivered in separate trucks to a blending station. That is the only way right now to ensure a water free ethanol product.

Several places on the East Coast experienced failures of fuel pumps (BMW, USPS) due to moisture mixing with ethanol at the begining of the switch-over. Some of the gas tanks at gas stations were not correctly purged from the old gas, the car warranty did not cover repairs. The problem appears to have gone away. Still, you get less MPG and less acceleration with the ethanol blend.

Ethanol has been consistently selling at higher prices than gas to the oil companies that must produce the blend and sell it to us. Another political solution to our energy problems!

I invite anyone interested to visit businessweek.com an do a search for Ed Wallace. He has devoted a lot of time studying this problem.