Transmission Diagnostic Help 4F8D, 2A98, 2AD0
06-19-2014, 10:08 AM
#11
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How many times has the 4F8D code been cleared and reappeared? You don't need a new transmission. BMW dealers are trained to replace the complete valve body assembly (Mechatronic) or replace the entire transmission. They are literally not taught to service individual components of the transmission.
4F8D is a ratio monitoring code. The TCM is seeing slippage in that particular clutch pack, and placing the transmission into failsafe mode. The likely cause of your slippage in that pack, and any other pack, is with the valve body (Mechatronic). 9 times out 10 its worn out shift solenoids. If you let it keep slipping like that, then yes you will need a new transmission. Those clutch packs are not made to slip like a standard clutch is. They burn up very quickly if they slip too much and too often.
I was getting repeated 4F85 and 4F81 faults. I would clear them, only to have them come back within two weeks. I replaced all of the shift solenoids, bridge seal, and the four sealing sleeves. That was 3000 miles ago and (knock on wood) I have never had the problem come back.
Best of luck with the car. Another example of shoddy engineering by ZF. These transmissions are a joke.
4F8D is a ratio monitoring code. The TCM is seeing slippage in that particular clutch pack, and placing the transmission into failsafe mode. The likely cause of your slippage in that pack, and any other pack, is with the valve body (Mechatronic). 9 times out 10 its worn out shift solenoids. If you let it keep slipping like that, then yes you will need a new transmission. Those clutch packs are not made to slip like a standard clutch is. They burn up very quickly if they slip too much and too often.
I was getting repeated 4F85 and 4F81 faults. I would clear them, only to have them come back within two weeks. I replaced all of the shift solenoids, bridge seal, and the four sealing sleeves. That was 3000 miles ago and (knock on wood) I have never had the problem come back.
Best of luck with the car. Another example of shoddy engineering by ZF. These transmissions are a joke.
SI B 24 04 07
Automatic Transmission April 2007
Technical Service
SUBJECT
ZF 6HP19TU in Failsafe Mode with Fault 4F8D Stored
MODEL
E90, E91, E92 with N52K or N54 engines and the 6HP19TU automatic transmission produced from 9/01/06 up to 2/28/2007
SITUATION
The transmission goes into failsafe mode with fault code 4F8D (ratio monitoring, gearshift 5-4 – plausibility) stored in the EGS.
CAUSE
EGS software diagnostics is too sensitive.
This fault may occur during a 5-4 downshift only in vehicles with either low mileage, a replacement transmission, or after a reset of the adaptation values.
CORRECTION
On a customer complaint basis only, perform an adaptation run as described in the procedure below.
Note: The transmission adaptation occurs only at a transmission oil temperature of 75°C or higher.
Once a transmission oil temperature of 75°C is reached, carry out the adaptation run as follows:
In drive position "D", increase vehicle speed up to 4th gear (approximately 25 mph), but do not allow a shift into 5th gear.
Allow the vehicle to then coast to a stop and keep the vehicle stationary for approximately 15 seconds with the brake pedal applied.
Next, with the vehicle stationary, change from D to N and back to D again.
Repeat steps 1 to 3 approximately 10 times.
This problem is solved in series production beginning 3/01/07 with integration level E89x-07-03-510.
WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
Defect Code
24 00 23 83 00
Labor Operation:
24 99 000
Labor Allowance:
4 FRU
WT
06-19-2014, 10:30 AM
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It's certainly possible; if the TCM and EDS solenoids don't have a good steady stream of power going to them, theoretically it could cause shifting problems. I have heard stories of bad batteries in E60s causing all sorts of weird electrical system problems, including erratic shifting. The fact that the same code keeps reappearing in the TCM leads me to believe that it's likely you have a hard failure with a component in the valve body or possible one or more of the seals between the valve body and the transmission casing.
06-19-2014, 10:32 AM
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Resetting adaptations is a band-aid fix. If you are repeatedly getting the same 4F8D code, you have a hard failure somewhere.
06-19-2014, 10:38 AM
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It's certainly possible; if the TCM and EDS solenoids don't have a good steady stream of power going to them, theoretically it could cause shifting problems. I have heard stories of bad batteries in E60s causing all sorts of weird electrical system problems, including erratic shifting. The fact that the same code keeps reappearing in the TCM leads me to believe that it's likely you have a hard failure with a component in the valve body or possible one or more of the seals between the valve body and the transmission casing.
Could I have a leaking seal and not have any leak externally? I would assume that I would have an external leak like I did 2 years ago when I had the sealing sleeves replaced.
06-19-2014, 11:17 AM
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Well I have a brand new battery so that shouldn't be the problem but if the autozone tester was correct, I might have a bad alternator or voltage regulator, allowing drops in power to the TCM.
Could I have a leaking seal and not have any leak externally? I would assume that I would have an external leak like I did 2 years ago when I had the sealing sleeves replaced.
Could I have a leaking seal and not have any leak externally? I would assume that I would have an external leak like I did 2 years ago when I had the sealing sleeves replaced.
06-19-2014, 12:16 PM
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I guess it's just hard to accept that I have a hard transmission failure with all these modules failing around me. Also, even if I only need seal replacement, it is nothing I am equipped to do and neither the dealer nor the independent shop is willing to get into the transmission. The indy will just pull my transmission and swap it for a reman, so really they're not much better than dealer in that regard. I can drive to Atlanta and leave it with European Transmissions who will figure out what's going on but, again, with all these systems going out on me one after another, it's hard to ignore the possibility that it's all electrical/software related. I can start ordering modules like a new PDC, new diversity amp and put them in but that may not get any closer to finding the gremlin.
06-19-2014, 03:51 PM
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I just skimmed your post quickly and might have missed something, but I would look more closely at the alternator.
I don't know how cheap your cigarette lighter voltmeter is, but you shouldn't be seeing 13V on the system with your battery at less than an 80% charge.
Failure of the voltage regulator on the alternator can be very intermittent. When mine failed, the alternator ramp up was too slow, and with an already low battery charge the ECU and CAS would throw a low system voltage fault and kick out the terminal 30g relay, which provides power to the transmission control module and dynamic stability control modules among other things, lighting up the dash. I would pull over, turn off the engine, restart and it would be fine. But as time progressed and I monitored the cigarette socket voltmeter while driving the fluctuations in voltage were getting worse.
I would suggest you probe the connections under the hood with a multimeter while someone else starts the engine cold. Monitor the alternator ramp up voltage and have the person in the car occasionally call out the voltage they see on the cigarette socket voltmeter to check its accuracy against the multimeter. The first cigarette socket voltmeter I bought was terribly inaccurate but the one I have now is very accurate compared to a digital multimeter.
I don't know how cheap your cigarette lighter voltmeter is, but you shouldn't be seeing 13V on the system with your battery at less than an 80% charge.
Failure of the voltage regulator on the alternator can be very intermittent. When mine failed, the alternator ramp up was too slow, and with an already low battery charge the ECU and CAS would throw a low system voltage fault and kick out the terminal 30g relay, which provides power to the transmission control module and dynamic stability control modules among other things, lighting up the dash. I would pull over, turn off the engine, restart and it would be fine. But as time progressed and I monitored the cigarette socket voltmeter while driving the fluctuations in voltage were getting worse.
I would suggest you probe the connections under the hood with a multimeter while someone else starts the engine cold. Monitor the alternator ramp up voltage and have the person in the car occasionally call out the voltage they see on the cigarette socket voltmeter to check its accuracy against the multimeter. The first cigarette socket voltmeter I bought was terribly inaccurate but the one I have now is very accurate compared to a digital multimeter.
06-19-2014, 05:31 PM
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I guess it's just hard to accept that I have a hard transmission failure with all these modules failing around me. Also, even if I only need seal replacement, it is nothing I am equipped to do and neither the dealer nor the independent shop is willing to get into the transmission. The indy will just pull my transmission and swap it for a reman, so really they're not much better than dealer in that regard. I can drive to Atlanta and leave it with European Transmissions who will figure out what's going on but, again, with all these systems going out on me one after another, it's hard to ignore the possibility that it's all electrical/software related. I can start ordering modules like a new PDC, new diversity amp and put them in but that may not get any closer to finding the gremlin.
these transmissions are known for valve body and bridge seal failures. Best of luck with the car. If you do get things sorted out please update this thread so that if someone else down the road has a similar problem he or she will know what to look for. And if you do end up having to do something with the transmission, please feel free to contact me directly. BTDT with the whole transmission code thing.
06-19-2014, 06:11 PM
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You may not, it could absolutely be related to some electrical gremlin. If i were in your shoes I would definitely get the entire electrical system in good working order before I started replacing transmissions. The only reason I suggested that you could have some sort of transmission component hard failure is because A) the same code is coming up repeatedly and these transmissions are known for valve body and bridge seal failures.
Best of luck with the car. If you do get things sorted out please update this thread so that if someone else down the road has a similar problem he or she will know what to look for. And if you do end up having to do something with the transmission, please feel free to contact me directly. BTDT with the whole transmission code thing.
these transmissions are known for valve body and bridge seal failures. Best of luck with the car. If you do get things sorted out please update this thread so that if someone else down the road has a similar problem he or she will know what to look for. And if you do end up having to do something with the transmission, please feel free to contact me directly. BTDT with the whole transmission code thing.
I spent some time tonight fiddling around:
-I pulled the diversity antenna amplifier out of the top of tailgate. I have power to the blue/white wire that feeds controls the unlocking on the antenna amp (4.8-4.9v). However, it turns out that I do have bad rust/corrosion on the under side right on the lead marked FBD which is what connects to the unlocking. So I guess it's just a bad module. When I last opened up the module I didn't actually take it out, only looked at the top.
-I pulled apart the PDC module and it has power on the card (4.8v) so, again, I'm guessing that means I probably have a bad PDC module. It's a little odd that the both went out around the same time as my dead battery but it is an 8 year old car.
-My previously mentioned SOS call / bluetooth failure message went away this afternoon so I guess that will be intermittent.
The cheapest I can find those modules are on getbmwparts.com for $240 each.
-I'm still a little concerned about possible voltage drops/spikes that could be causing a problem, but I'm leaning more towards it being less mysterious and more straight forward. As in, I just have an old car and stuff breaks.
- So I'll probably order those modules and then begin to address the transmission. Did you pull yours apart yourself? Should I invest in a cable and one of the diagnostic software packages or just take it to a transmission place and let them figure it out?
thanks again for you all your help and advice.
Tim
06-19-2014, 07:20 PM
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I'd make all the non-transmission problems go away before replacing a transmission for megabucks. At least then, if you decide to swap the tranny, you'll have a all fixed up car and not be depressed that now the tranny is fine and all this other stuff is still broken. And, it could just clear it up -- you don't know until you fix it all.