Talk To Me About Diesel
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Originally Posted by Ricracing' post='281541' date='May 12 2006, 08:21 AM
The main problem is that there is not distribution network for diesel fuel,
for new high-tech diesel engines, in US.
It's not the same diesel as for the large trucks.
I guess you do not either have refinerys for producing hi-tech diesel fuel.
Also in US the fuel prices are so low (or have been) that there has not been
a need for high milage/low polluting modern diesels.
Also your attitude has a lot to do with the lack of diesels.
But since a barrel is now up to $75 I hope the thinking will start over there, too.
The diesel engines are really strong, a 530d (voted as the best buy BMW) has 230 hp
and a torgue of 500 Nm, the torgue is superior the a 550i.
The new 535d will have about 300 hp and a torgue of near 600 Nm!
Modern diesels also come with a particle filter so they not only more fuel efficent
but are also very clean.
PS. US government did shit on the Kyoto legislation. US is the worlds leading polluter,
and by far, producing about half of the whole worlds vaste!
You have a poplation of about 280 million, thats about 10% of the worlds population!
This CA car emission restriction is a small, very small step, to the right direction.
A diesel car pollutes much less than any midsize gas car.
for new high-tech diesel engines, in US.
It's not the same diesel as for the large trucks.
I guess you do not either have refinerys for producing hi-tech diesel fuel.
Also in US the fuel prices are so low (or have been) that there has not been
a need for high milage/low polluting modern diesels.
Also your attitude has a lot to do with the lack of diesels.
But since a barrel is now up to $75 I hope the thinking will start over there, too.
The diesel engines are really strong, a 530d (voted as the best buy BMW) has 230 hp
and a torgue of 500 Nm, the torgue is superior the a 550i.
The new 535d will have about 300 hp and a torgue of near 600 Nm!
Modern diesels also come with a particle filter so they not only more fuel efficent
but are also very clean.
PS. US government did shit on the Kyoto legislation. US is the worlds leading polluter,
and by far, producing about half of the whole worlds vaste!
You have a poplation of about 280 million, thats about 10% of the worlds population!
This CA car emission restriction is a small, very small step, to the right direction.
A diesel car pollutes much less than any midsize gas car.
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Dear swajames,
Good, wise and nice post.
Diesel fuel is a more refined brand of oil, thats thrue and of course that will consume some more energy to produce.
But the old saying that "Nothing can beat cubic inches" has come to a end.
Turbo-diesels with new electronics can prove that wrong.
But I must also say that ie BMW:s new twin-turbo 3.0 litre sixinline N53B35 is a high-tech
enigine. More than 300 hp and a torgue of 400 Nm at 1300-5000 rpm, consuming only a
avarage of 9,5 l / 100km is great.
The CO2 figures have not yet been seen.
It's also true that only now the diesels have come out with the particle filter wich makes them clean.
Old diesels can not even be compared but the thruth is that a modern diesel engine runs more efficient than a modern gas one (energy to power).
What comes to CO2 emissions the diesels are much cleaner, ie 530iA 224 g/km and the 530dA 200 g/km.
Both cars are about as fast but the 530dA uses about 7,5 l/100 km and the 530iA 9,3 l/100 km.
Tax policy is important. That's why I still drive a gasoline car. Overhere the diesel tax is per year so heavy, so I would need to drive more than 30,000 km's a year to get any benefit.
But the car itself is not more pricy overhere: 530iA €68110 and the 530dA €67960.
This discussion has nothing to do the our taxation, (close to $90,000 is sick!)
I'm also sure that M-B's example will inspire BMW and other brands as well to bring
fine diesel cars to your market.
It will also be interesting to see how hybrids and hydrogen cars will effect the market.
But I also hope that US Forums members, as good earning smart people, could also
help the world by being trendsetters.
Cheers,
Riku
Good, wise and nice post.
Diesel fuel is a more refined brand of oil, thats thrue and of course that will consume some more energy to produce.
But the old saying that "Nothing can beat cubic inches" has come to a end.
Turbo-diesels with new electronics can prove that wrong.
But I must also say that ie BMW:s new twin-turbo 3.0 litre sixinline N53B35 is a high-tech
enigine. More than 300 hp and a torgue of 400 Nm at 1300-5000 rpm, consuming only a
avarage of 9,5 l / 100km is great.
The CO2 figures have not yet been seen.
It's also true that only now the diesels have come out with the particle filter wich makes them clean.
Old diesels can not even be compared but the thruth is that a modern diesel engine runs more efficient than a modern gas one (energy to power).
What comes to CO2 emissions the diesels are much cleaner, ie 530iA 224 g/km and the 530dA 200 g/km.
Both cars are about as fast but the 530dA uses about 7,5 l/100 km and the 530iA 9,3 l/100 km.
Tax policy is important. That's why I still drive a gasoline car. Overhere the diesel tax is per year so heavy, so I would need to drive more than 30,000 km's a year to get any benefit.
But the car itself is not more pricy overhere: 530iA €68110 and the 530dA €67960.
This discussion has nothing to do the our taxation, (close to $90,000 is sick!)
I'm also sure that M-B's example will inspire BMW and other brands as well to bring
fine diesel cars to your market.
It will also be interesting to see how hybrids and hydrogen cars will effect the market.
But I also hope that US Forums members, as good earning smart people, could also
help the world by being trendsetters.
Cheers,
Riku
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='281562' date='May 12 2006, 04:50 PM
There is also the often forgotten reality that it takes much more energy (I've seen numbers quoting 20 to 25% more energy) to make a gallon of diesel fuel compared to a gallon of gasoline is cheap or expensive is relevant more to domestic markets.
My understanding was that diesel was an earlier fraction of the distillation and refinement of petroleum than gasoline therefore LESS energy is required..Additionally I know of only ONE market in EU where diesel has mysteriously exceeded the price of Unleaded and that's UK.
Take away taxes and resellers market exploitation, and (another forgotten reality?) the supply price of diesel to resllers worldwide is lower than unleaded.
Go figure how the "energy to make a gallon" is accounted for...
ABC
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Originally Posted by Ricracing' post='281574' date='May 12 2006, 09:03 AM
Dear swajames,
Good, wise and nice post.
Diesel fuel is a more refined brand of oil, thats thrue and of course that will consume some more energy to produce.
But the old saying that "Nothing can beat cubic inches" has come to a end.
Turbo-diesels with new electronics can prove that wrong.
But I must also say that ie BMW:s new twin-turbo 3.0 litre sixinline N53B35 is a high-tech
enigine. More than 300 hp and a torgue of 400 Nm at 1300-5000 rpm, consuming only a
avarage of 9,5 l / 100km is great.
The CO2 figures have not yet been seen.
It's also true that only now the diesels have come out with the particle filter wich makes them clean.
Old diesels can not even be compared but the thruth is that a modern diesel engine runs more efficient than a modern gas one (energy to power).
What comes to CO2 emissions the diesels are much cleaner, ie 530iA 224 g/km and the 530dA 200 g/km.
Both cars are about as fast but the 530dA uses about 7,5 l/100 km and the 530iA 9,3 l/100 km.
Tax policy is important. That's why I still drive a gasoline car. Overhere the diesel tax is per year so heavy, so I would need to drive more than 30,000 km's a year to get any benefit.
But the car itself is not more pricy overhere: 530iA ?68110 and the 530dA ?67960.
This discussion has nothing to do the our taxation, (close to $90,000 is sick!)
I'm also sure that M-B's example will inspire BMW and other brands as well to bring
fine diesel cars to your market.
It will also be interesting to see how hybrids and hydrogen cars will effect the market.
But I also hope that US Forums members, as good earning smart people, could also
help the world by being trendsetters.
Cheers,
Riku
Good, wise and nice post.
Diesel fuel is a more refined brand of oil, thats thrue and of course that will consume some more energy to produce.
But the old saying that "Nothing can beat cubic inches" has come to a end.
Turbo-diesels with new electronics can prove that wrong.
But I must also say that ie BMW:s new twin-turbo 3.0 litre sixinline N53B35 is a high-tech
enigine. More than 300 hp and a torgue of 400 Nm at 1300-5000 rpm, consuming only a
avarage of 9,5 l / 100km is great.
The CO2 figures have not yet been seen.
It's also true that only now the diesels have come out with the particle filter wich makes them clean.
Old diesels can not even be compared but the thruth is that a modern diesel engine runs more efficient than a modern gas one (energy to power).
What comes to CO2 emissions the diesels are much cleaner, ie 530iA 224 g/km and the 530dA 200 g/km.
Both cars are about as fast but the 530dA uses about 7,5 l/100 km and the 530iA 9,3 l/100 km.
Tax policy is important. That's why I still drive a gasoline car. Overhere the diesel tax is per year so heavy, so I would need to drive more than 30,000 km's a year to get any benefit.
But the car itself is not more pricy overhere: 530iA ?68110 and the 530dA ?67960.
This discussion has nothing to do the our taxation, (close to $90,000 is sick!)
I'm also sure that M-B's example will inspire BMW and other brands as well to bring
fine diesel cars to your market.
It will also be interesting to see how hybrids and hydrogen cars will effect the market.
But I also hope that US Forums members, as good earning smart people, could also
help the world by being trendsetters.
Cheers,
Riku
#25
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Originally Posted by Ricracing' post='281574' date='May 12 2006, 05:03 PM
Diesel fuel is a more refined brand of oil, thats thrue and of course that will consume some more energy to produce.
"Several countries charge relatively lower duty rates on diesel giving the impression that diesel fuel is cheaper in these countries compared to the UK.
The refinery process splits crude oil into a range of products from gas (propane and butane) and petrol at the lighter end of the density range to heavy fuel oil (used by ships, power station etc.) and bitumen at the heavy end. Diesel is typically made from kerosene and gas oil components which are heavier than the petrol components. The different component products are internationally traded and subject to their own supply and demand dynamics.
The international wholesale price for petrol is largely dependent on the demand for this transportation fuel, whereas the price for gas oil is dependent on demand in both the transportation and heating fuel sectors. Kerosene is also traded internationally and is used for aviation/jet fuel as well as for domestic heating; it too is therefore subject to its own supply/demand forces.
In winter there is generally lower demand for petrol and higher demand for gas oil, particularly in the US for heating. This tends to increase the relative price of diesel at this time of year. There is a general shortage of diesel across Europe at the moment and the UK doesn't have refinery capacity to meet its own diesel needs.
Other factors at play include increasing demand for diesel in the UK and the Europe wide change of specification to sulphur free from the beginning of 2005"
You may also be interested in this "European" price comparison document for April 2006.
Click here for the Word document
ABC
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Originally Posted by aybeesea' post='281594' date='May 12 2006, 09:44 AM
Quote from UK AA
"Several countries charge relatively lower duty rates on diesel giving the impression that diesel fuel is cheaper in these countries compared to the UK.
The refinery process splits crude oil into a range of products from gas (propane and butane) and petrol at the lighter end of the density range to heavy fuel oil (used by ships, power station etc.) and bitumen at the heavy end. Diesel is typically made from kerosene and gas oil components which are heavier than the petrol components. The different component products are internationally traded and subject to their own supply and demand dynamics.
The international wholesale price for petrol is largely dependent on the demand for this transportation fuel, whereas the price for gas oil is dependent on demand in both the transportation and heating fuel sectors. Kerosene is also traded internationally and is used for aviation/jet fuel as well as for domestic heating; it too is therefore subject to its own supply/demand forces.
In winter there is generally lower demand for petrol and higher demand for gas oil, particularly in the US for heating. This tends to increase the relative price of diesel at this time of year. There is a general shortage of diesel across Europe at the moment and the UK doesn't have refinery capacity to meet its own diesel needs.
Other factors at play include increasing demand for diesel in the UK and the Europe wide change of specification to sulphur free from the beginning of 2005"
You may also be interested in this "European" price comparison document for April 2006.
Click here for the Word document
ABC
"Several countries charge relatively lower duty rates on diesel giving the impression that diesel fuel is cheaper in these countries compared to the UK.
The refinery process splits crude oil into a range of products from gas (propane and butane) and petrol at the lighter end of the density range to heavy fuel oil (used by ships, power station etc.) and bitumen at the heavy end. Diesel is typically made from kerosene and gas oil components which are heavier than the petrol components. The different component products are internationally traded and subject to their own supply and demand dynamics.
The international wholesale price for petrol is largely dependent on the demand for this transportation fuel, whereas the price for gas oil is dependent on demand in both the transportation and heating fuel sectors. Kerosene is also traded internationally and is used for aviation/jet fuel as well as for domestic heating; it too is therefore subject to its own supply/demand forces.
In winter there is generally lower demand for petrol and higher demand for gas oil, particularly in the US for heating. This tends to increase the relative price of diesel at this time of year. There is a general shortage of diesel across Europe at the moment and the UK doesn't have refinery capacity to meet its own diesel needs.
Other factors at play include increasing demand for diesel in the UK and the Europe wide change of specification to sulphur free from the beginning of 2005"
You may also be interested in this "European" price comparison document for April 2006.
Click here for the Word document
ABC
I'm not too sure what this got to do with the total cost/energy needed to produce any specific fuel, which isn't necessarily related to the cost at the pump. There's an article here which has some opinion on the production processes suggesting that it can in some cases take more oil and creates more greenhouse gases to produce a gallon of diesel (this is primarily the point I was making)
http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/catalys...or-thought.html
Like you I take some of this stuff with a pinch of salt, but I wasn't really talking about cost, more the process of getting the fuel to the customer.
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='281598' date='May 12 2006, 05:53 PM
I'm not too sure what this got to do with the total cost/energy needed to produce any specific fuel, which isn't necessarily related to the cost at the pump. There's an article here which has some opinion on the production processes suggesting that it can in some cases take more oil and creates more greenhouse gases to produce a gallon of diesel (this is primarily the point I was making)
http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/catalys...or-thought.html
Like you I take some of this stuff with a pinch of salt, but I wasn't really talking about cost, more the process of getting the fuel to the customer.
http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/catalys...or-thought.html
Like you I take some of this stuff with a pinch of salt, but I wasn't really talking about cost, more the process of getting the fuel to the customer.
The artice claims 25% more oil needed to produce diesel to "Tier 2 Standards". It doesn't claim anything about existing Diesel fuel. Regarding the greenhouse gases referred to, they are NOT associated with the production, rather the combustion of this type of fuel.
As for getting diesel or gasoline "to the customer" I honestly don't understand why one would be more expensive than the other!
Thanks for your patience with me!
Regards,
ABC
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Originally Posted by aybeesea' post='281603' date='May 12 2006, 10:19 AM
Your quoted article doesn't actually agree with what your are saying.
The artice claims 25% more oil needed to produce diesel to "Tier 2 Standards". It doesn't claim anything about existing Diesel fuel. Regarding the greenhouse gases referred to, they are NOT associated with the production, rather the combustion of this type of fuel.
As for getting diesel or gasoline "to the customer" I honestly don't understand why one would be more expensive than the other!
Thanks for your patience with me!
Regards,
ABC
The artice claims 25% more oil needed to produce diesel to "Tier 2 Standards". It doesn't claim anything about existing Diesel fuel. Regarding the greenhouse gases referred to, they are NOT associated with the production, rather the combustion of this type of fuel.
As for getting diesel or gasoline "to the customer" I honestly don't understand why one would be more expensive than the other!
Thanks for your patience with me!
Regards,
ABC
#29
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Originally Posted by swajames' post='281605' date='May 12 2006, 06:27 PM
As for the bigger picture regarding the diesel engines in general we're likely to in violent agreement on that and I'm certainly looking forward to getting the BMW diesels out here.
ABC
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A European spec 535d has oxidising catalysts and particle filters and will meet the emissions standards Stateside no problem when running on European diesel (you could eat your dinner off the inside of my tailpipes
). They need low sulphur fuel however as sulphur kills the cats, and so engines that will run on your current diesel fuel can't have these systems and wont meet current emissions.
Not sure about the amount of energy needed to provide a gallon of diesel/petrol, but my understanding was that it was a supply and demand issue. Every gallon of crude provides a certain percentage of each component, and the fraction that diesel comes out of is the one that drives demand. Petrol by comparison is surplus. If everyone drove a diesel we would be using more crude, more refinery capacity (and therefore energy), and someone would have to think of a new use for the petrol fraction or else dump it!
Politically, diesel will never be allowed to displace petrol, so the petrol/diesel debate (be thankful you don't have THAT in the States
) will continue for a good while yet.
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Not sure about the amount of energy needed to provide a gallon of diesel/petrol, but my understanding was that it was a supply and demand issue. Every gallon of crude provides a certain percentage of each component, and the fraction that diesel comes out of is the one that drives demand. Petrol by comparison is surplus. If everyone drove a diesel we would be using more crude, more refinery capacity (and therefore energy), and someone would have to think of a new use for the petrol fraction or else dump it!
Politically, diesel will never be allowed to displace petrol, so the petrol/diesel debate (be thankful you don't have THAT in the States
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