Scary "Brake" moment today.....
02-09-2009, 02:43 PM
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Just thought I'd share a very scary moment I had today and to see if anyone one else has experienced anything similar?
Today, I did a 500 mile round trip on business from 'up North' down to the South & back again!
On my downward journey, it was raining heavy most of the way - nothing out of the norm for good old England. This part of the journey took me about 4.5 hours, with nothing spectacular (except for the M5 that dropped a few gears when passing me to show me who was boss on the motorway - fair play, it sounded awesome!).
On my return journey, the rain was on another level - absolutely torrential, masses of standing water, and the spray was immense! I got on the Motorway and 'went with the flow of the traffic' which was around 50mph on average due to the weather. I drove for approx. 2 hrs and did very little (if any) braking - for once, there was no panic braking by cars in front, just a steady flow through the terrible conditions.
After about 2 hrs I needed to apply the brakes to slow the car slightly and immediately felt that the pedal felt 'hard' - a similar feeling to considerable brake fade i.e. hard pedal with reduced stopping power. I immediately lifted off the pedal, and then slowly pressed again only to be met with the same feeling! Almost a split second later, the traffic began to abruptly stop requiring me to 'really press the pedal' in an 'emergency stop' kind of circumstance. To my utter surprise, the car violently swerved to the left (with absolutely no input from me on the steering wheel). Fortunately I was in the inside lane, but the swerve was severe enough for me to end up half the width of the car on the hard shoulder, before I had a chance to correct with the steering wheel. As you would imagine - this nerved me to say the least.
The traffic then set-off again and I drove very cautiously, with the intention of pulling in at the next services. I tried covering the brakes a few times but could tell that they immediately were trying to pull the car to the left. Releasing the brakes allowed the car to return to a perfect track. After several miles I came to the service area, and as there was no cars behind me, I tried 3 - 4 repeated 'hard' applications of the brakes - but was this time ready should the car swerve. The first time it sort of tried to pull over, the second not as bad and then finally the brakes came back to normal 'just like that'!
My theory is that they must have been full of water, after all, the conditions were horrendous, and I guess there was a direct flow of rain water through the cooling ducts in the front bumper to the inside of the front discs. I have had a similar feeling before after washing the car and initially applying the brakes after a few hundred yards - this is why I do think it must have been water. However, what has me confused is the fact that these car's have a function called 'brake drying' (or something similar). As I understand it, in wet conditions the brake pads are very lightly pressed against the discs (not enough to even feel whilst driving) to 'dry' them ready for the next application. Therefore, why did this happen????????????
The rest of the journey was fine with no repeat problems. The brakes at no point squealed or made any noises. Ironically, my car only had a 'Vehicle Inspection' as advised by iDrive last Wednesday, during which time my brake pads were quoted as being fine, and in-line with the iDrive's remaining distance of 12k miles for the Fronts & 16k miles for the rears. I also had a full set of new tyres fitted the week before. Whilst the car was in the air on the ramp with all 4 wheels off, I had a quick look at each of the brakes discs / pads and can confirm personally there seemed to be plenty of pad material left at each wheel.
What do people think - has anyone else ever experienced anything like this is their E60?
Editied to say - apologies this turned into a bit of an essay!
Today, I did a 500 mile round trip on business from 'up North' down to the South & back again!
On my downward journey, it was raining heavy most of the way - nothing out of the norm for good old England. This part of the journey took me about 4.5 hours, with nothing spectacular (except for the M5 that dropped a few gears when passing me to show me who was boss on the motorway - fair play, it sounded awesome!).
On my return journey, the rain was on another level - absolutely torrential, masses of standing water, and the spray was immense! I got on the Motorway and 'went with the flow of the traffic' which was around 50mph on average due to the weather. I drove for approx. 2 hrs and did very little (if any) braking - for once, there was no panic braking by cars in front, just a steady flow through the terrible conditions.
After about 2 hrs I needed to apply the brakes to slow the car slightly and immediately felt that the pedal felt 'hard' - a similar feeling to considerable brake fade i.e. hard pedal with reduced stopping power. I immediately lifted off the pedal, and then slowly pressed again only to be met with the same feeling! Almost a split second later, the traffic began to abruptly stop requiring me to 'really press the pedal' in an 'emergency stop' kind of circumstance. To my utter surprise, the car violently swerved to the left (with absolutely no input from me on the steering wheel). Fortunately I was in the inside lane, but the swerve was severe enough for me to end up half the width of the car on the hard shoulder, before I had a chance to correct with the steering wheel. As you would imagine - this nerved me to say the least.
The traffic then set-off again and I drove very cautiously, with the intention of pulling in at the next services. I tried covering the brakes a few times but could tell that they immediately were trying to pull the car to the left. Releasing the brakes allowed the car to return to a perfect track. After several miles I came to the service area, and as there was no cars behind me, I tried 3 - 4 repeated 'hard' applications of the brakes - but was this time ready should the car swerve. The first time it sort of tried to pull over, the second not as bad and then finally the brakes came back to normal 'just like that'!
My theory is that they must have been full of water, after all, the conditions were horrendous, and I guess there was a direct flow of rain water through the cooling ducts in the front bumper to the inside of the front discs. I have had a similar feeling before after washing the car and initially applying the brakes after a few hundred yards - this is why I do think it must have been water. However, what has me confused is the fact that these car's have a function called 'brake drying' (or something similar). As I understand it, in wet conditions the brake pads are very lightly pressed against the discs (not enough to even feel whilst driving) to 'dry' them ready for the next application. Therefore, why did this happen????????????
The rest of the journey was fine with no repeat problems. The brakes at no point squealed or made any noises. Ironically, my car only had a 'Vehicle Inspection' as advised by iDrive last Wednesday, during which time my brake pads were quoted as being fine, and in-line with the iDrive's remaining distance of 12k miles for the Fronts & 16k miles for the rears. I also had a full set of new tyres fitted the week before. Whilst the car was in the air on the ramp with all 4 wheels off, I had a quick look at each of the brakes discs / pads and can confirm personally there seemed to be plenty of pad material left at each wheel.
What do people think - has anyone else ever experienced anything like this is their E60?
Editied to say - apologies this turned into a bit of an essay!
02-09-2009, 03:02 PM
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Wow, first - thank goodness you got through the ordeal without a scratch. That sounds like a very hairy, potentially disastrous situation. It's been raining moderately hard here in Southern California. Quite a bit of our infrastructure isn't equipped to handle large deluges, so streets can fill up fairly quickly with runoff. I was traveling on a local highway (405 freeway) and hit a fairly large flooded section at speed. I didn't notice any significant degradation in braking performance. Hopefully someone can chime in with a possible solution.
02-09-2009, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by advancedlogic' post='788884' date='Feb 10 2009, 12:02 AM
Wow, first - thank goodness you got through the ordeal without a scratch. That sounds like a very hairy, potentially disastrous situation. It's been raining moderately hard here in Southern California. Quite a bit of our infrastructure isn't equipped to handle large deluges, so streets can fill up fairly quickly with runoff. I was traveling on a local highway (405 freeway) and hit a fairly large flooded section at speed. I didn't notice any significant degradation in braking performance. Hopefully someone can chime in with a possible solution.
02-09-2009, 03:21 PM
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I've never experienced this with my E61 but due to the bad weather I have been usings my better half's Renault Megane. I have to visit Mahchester quite a lot so do Coventry to Manchester a few times a week and have noticed exactly the same as you. First happened a few weeks ago in heavy rain on the M6. Hadn't used the brakes for quite a while and when I applied them the car also pulled left quite badly. Only afer a few hard aplications did it clear. I can only assume that one side is getting more of a soaking than the other so causing a brake imbalance. I tend to just dab the brakes lightly now and again when raining and safe to do so. Maybe it's to do with the design of the wheel, Megane has quite an open design where as my E61 has 124 Multi spoke which are more closed in.??
02-09-2009, 03:34 PM
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I've had that happen in an [American] Oldsmobile. It was because the car was some what hydroplaning and the ABS system was doing something screwy. Had the same effect, the brakes were rock hard and the car didn't seem to decelerate at all. I was going about 45 mph.
When the two front wheels finally hit the real pavement the brakes felt normal and the car stopped just fine.
I'd say it was a hydroplane and the reason you shifted left was that was the first wheel to make a solid contact with the pavement.
When the two front wheels finally hit the real pavement the brakes felt normal and the car stopped just fine.
I'd say it was a hydroplane and the reason you shifted left was that was the first wheel to make a solid contact with the pavement.
02-09-2009, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by k44ent' post='788905' date='Feb 10 2009, 12:21 AM
I've never experienced this with my E61 but due to the bad weather I have been usings my better half's Renault Megane. I have to visit Mahchester quite a lot so do Coventry to Manchester a few times a week and have noticed exactly the same as you. First happened a few weeks ago in heavy rain on the M6. Hadn't used the brakes for quite a while and when I applied them the car also pulled left quite badly. Only afer a few hard aplications did it clear. I can only assume that one side is getting more of a soaking than the other so causing a brake imbalance. I tend to just dab the brakes lightly now and again when raining and safe to do so. Maybe it's to do with the design of the wheel, Megane has quite an open design where as my E61 has 124 Multi spoke which are more closed in.??
Why didn't the 'Brake Drying' feature work I wonder?
02-09-2009, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by or_550i' post='788922' date='Feb 10 2009, 12:34 AM
I've had that happen in an [American] Oldsmobile. It was because the car was some what hydroplaning and the ABS system was doing something screwy. Had the same effect, the brakes were rock hard and the car didn't seem to decelerate at all. I was going about 45 mph.
When the two front wheels finally hit the real pavement the brakes felt normal and the car stopped just fine.
I'd say it was a hydroplane and the reason you shifted left was that was the first wheel to make a solid contact with the pavement.
When the two front wheels finally hit the real pavement the brakes felt normal and the car stopped just fine.
I'd say it was a hydroplane and the reason you shifted left was that was the first wheel to make a solid contact with the pavement.
02-09-2009, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Palmo' post='788925' date='Feb 9 2009, 07:38 PM
Thanks for the comments. However, in my case, I don't think I was hydroplaning - I have brand new tyres fitted and not once, despite the terrible weather, did it hydroplane (I do of course understand that even new tyres can hydroplane). Neither did the ABS cut in at anypoint.
I had a similar drive in an '02 M5, 2 hours in the pouring rain with standing water even on occasion. I had brand new Goodyear F1s, the best Z rated tire in the rain, period. I was running 50 mph when many were afraid to do 35mph. I had absolutely no issues hydroplaning or braking so I really can't say what led to your problem. BTW, I had the brake vents installed on the car and was concerned about that but it didn't seem to cause any issues.
It does make you think you need to test the brakes occasionally in those conditions, even with a brake drying feature.
02-09-2009, 09:10 PM
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Wow, good to hear you're ok after all.
That really does sound feasible that thr right side brakes were doing better job in drying.
I could imagine the brake pad has to struggle to push trough a water bed between it and the disc. Even if it was marginally thin.
Good to know this kind of behaviour, thanks for writing this down
.
That really does sound feasible that thr right side brakes were doing better job in drying.
I could imagine the brake pad has to struggle to push trough a water bed between it and the disc. Even if it was marginally thin.
Good to know this kind of behaviour, thanks for writing this down
.
02-10-2009, 05:55 AM
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Today, I have had the brakes inspected and no faults can be found with either the disc's or pads! As I've had no warning lights I can only presume there are no electrical faults either.
What I did notice, was when I got my car out of the garage this morning, all 4 disc's (looking through the wheels) were all very rusted up. When I returned home last night, I immediately parked my car in the garage - this followed a few miles of the brakes continually being applied as I drove through the local town to my house. So why would they be so rusted up as they were in constant use for the last 5 -6 miles of my journey? They just looked like when the car is washed - prior to being driven, but had more visible rust.
Driving the car cleared this (as expected) and I've had no problems today with the brakes - they feel great, just as usual! However, today there is no rain and I have only covered a few miles in comparison!
Is it possible that the 'Brake Drying' Feature is not working or that this switches itself off after a certain period of time, after all, it can't be very good for the brakes if they were constantly being lightly applied whilst on the motorway for over 4 hours in one go!
What's really bugging me is that the 5 Series BMW has a comprehensive list of 'brake' related / linked features that combined should have prevented this from happening. These include the following:
Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)
Automatic Stability Control (ASC)
Brake drying
Brake fade compensation
Brake Force Display
Brake pre-tensioning
Cornering Brake Control (CBC)
Dynamic Brake Control (DBC)
Dynamic Stability Control Plus (DSC+)
Dynamic Traction Control (DTC)
Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD)
Hill-start assistant
Soft stop
Despite all the above technology, this still happened to me - I'm sure most other manufactures can't offer a list of brake related features as comprehensive!
I've also just looked up the specific definition of 'Brake Drying' and it is quoted by BMW as follows:
"Rain brake support keeps the brakes dry to ensure optimum braking performance on even the wettest road surfaces. This function is activated when the rain sensor and windscreen wipers are in use."
All I can say is my wipers were certainly on 'constantly' yesterday.....so, I still don't think this should have happened on this particular car!
What I did notice, was when I got my car out of the garage this morning, all 4 disc's (looking through the wheels) were all very rusted up. When I returned home last night, I immediately parked my car in the garage - this followed a few miles of the brakes continually being applied as I drove through the local town to my house. So why would they be so rusted up as they were in constant use for the last 5 -6 miles of my journey? They just looked like when the car is washed - prior to being driven, but had more visible rust.
Driving the car cleared this (as expected) and I've had no problems today with the brakes - they feel great, just as usual! However, today there is no rain and I have only covered a few miles in comparison!
Is it possible that the 'Brake Drying' Feature is not working or that this switches itself off after a certain period of time, after all, it can't be very good for the brakes if they were constantly being lightly applied whilst on the motorway for over 4 hours in one go!
What's really bugging me is that the 5 Series BMW has a comprehensive list of 'brake' related / linked features that combined should have prevented this from happening. These include the following:
Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)
Automatic Stability Control (ASC)
Brake drying
Brake fade compensation
Brake Force Display
Brake pre-tensioning
Cornering Brake Control (CBC)
Dynamic Brake Control (DBC)
Dynamic Stability Control Plus (DSC+)
Dynamic Traction Control (DTC)
Electronic Brake-force Distribution (EBD)
Hill-start assistant
Soft stop
Despite all the above technology, this still happened to me - I'm sure most other manufactures can't offer a list of brake related features as comprehensive!
I've also just looked up the specific definition of 'Brake Drying' and it is quoted by BMW as follows:
"Rain brake support keeps the brakes dry to ensure optimum braking performance on even the wettest road surfaces. This function is activated when the rain sensor and windscreen wipers are in use."
All I can say is my wipers were certainly on 'constantly' yesterday.....so, I still don't think this should have happened on this particular car!