problem solved; engine 525D not reaching operating temperature.
05-08-2009, 11:27 AM
#231
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Originally Posted by Robbage' post='872072' date='May 8 2009, 06:04 AM
As Mini me says (to whom were very grateful he enlightened all of us to this) the egr is the first easy step. However idont think anybody in the 16 odd pages of this fully solved the prob without changing both therms. Maybe youll get lucky though. Let us know!
The drive was 1hr both ways and the car was around 70-80C and stabilised here.
It creeps up to 90 plus when stationary and temp goes down on the go.
The dealer will test why the fuel consumption is high but didn't think this was the sole reason for my bad mpg. A diff of 10C wouldn't make my consumption as bad as 20mpg in city driving. I can see it improving a little say 5-10% but i need a big improvement.
The problem i have is my car can reach these temps but sounds like a tractor(and whistles) at high temps and is silent when cold and does not settle until cooled down.
Not sure whats going on and will see dealer again to see if they can help. They were very polite and understood my problem. It was a main dealer. The independents did not know if EGR existed. I have more faith in main dealers now as all the independents i spoke to didn't have a clue and were very defensive in proving they knew more.
Adam
this makes for very interesting reading, i will be checking this out when i can
06-14-2009, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by adam1' post='872550' date='May 8 2009, 08:27 PM
Just returned from dealer today.
The drive was 1hr both ways and the car was around 70-80C and stabilised here.
It creeps up to 90 plus when stationary and temp goes down on the go.
The dealer will test why the fuel consumption is high but didn't think this was the sole reason for my bad mpg. A diff of 10C wouldn't make my consumption as bad as 20mpg in city driving. I can see it improving a little say 5-10% but i need a big improvement.
The problem i have is my car can reach these temps but sounds like a tractor(and whistles) at high temps and is silent when cold and does not settle until cooled down.
Not sure whats going on and will see dealer again to see if they can help. They were very polite and understood my problem. It was a main dealer. The independents did not know if EGR existed. I have more faith in main dealers now as all the independents i spoke to didn't have a clue and were very defensive in proving they knew more.
Adam
The drive was 1hr both ways and the car was around 70-80C and stabilised here.
It creeps up to 90 plus when stationary and temp goes down on the go.
The dealer will test why the fuel consumption is high but didn't think this was the sole reason for my bad mpg. A diff of 10C wouldn't make my consumption as bad as 20mpg in city driving. I can see it improving a little say 5-10% but i need a big improvement.
The problem i have is my car can reach these temps but sounds like a tractor(and whistles) at high temps and is silent when cold and does not settle until cooled down.
Not sure whats going on and will see dealer again to see if they can help. They were very polite and understood my problem. It was a main dealer. The independents did not know if EGR existed. I have more faith in main dealers now as all the independents i spoke to didn't have a clue and were very defensive in proving they knew more.
Adam
06-30-2009, 12:37 AM
#234
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Originally Posted by adam1' post='872550' date='May 8 2009, 09:27 PM
Just returned from dealer today.
The drive was 1hr both ways and the car was around 70-80C and stabilised here.
It creeps up to 90 plus when stationary and temp goes down on the go.
The dealer will test why the fuel consumption is high but didn't think this was the sole reason for my bad mpg. A diff of 10C wouldn't make my consumption as bad as 20mpg in city driving. I can see it improving a little say 5-10% but i need a big improvement.
The problem i have is my car can reach these temps but sounds like a tractor(and whistles) at high temps and is silent when cold and does not settle until cooled down.
Not sure whats going on and will see dealer again to see if they can help. They were very polite and understood my problem. It was a main dealer. The independents did not know if EGR existed. I have more faith in main dealers now as all the independents i spoke to didn't have a clue and were very defensive in proving they knew more.
Adam
The drive was 1hr both ways and the car was around 70-80C and stabilised here.
It creeps up to 90 plus when stationary and temp goes down on the go.
The dealer will test why the fuel consumption is high but didn't think this was the sole reason for my bad mpg. A diff of 10C wouldn't make my consumption as bad as 20mpg in city driving. I can see it improving a little say 5-10% but i need a big improvement.
The problem i have is my car can reach these temps but sounds like a tractor(and whistles) at high temps and is silent when cold and does not settle until cooled down.
Not sure whats going on and will see dealer again to see if they can help. They were very polite and understood my problem. It was a main dealer. The independents did not know if EGR existed. I have more faith in main dealers now as all the independents i spoke to didn't have a clue and were very defensive in proving they knew more.
Adam
10-06-2009, 11:27 PM
#235
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My cars engine temperature was around 77-80C on motorways, 82C in town. I replaced the EGR thermostat myself and the temparature on motorways improved to 82C.
The main thermostat was replaced by a main dealer and now 92C on motorways after 10 minutes driving, 95-96C in town.
The car is a 2005 535D.
The main thermostat was replaced by a main dealer and now 92C on motorways after 10 minutes driving, 95-96C in town.
The car is a 2005 535D.
10-26-2009, 05:15 AM
#237
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Originally Posted by mini_me' post='791187' date='Feb 12 2009, 09:48 AM
For those who want to replace the EGR thermostat here is a short howto;
PLEASE NOT THAT IF YOU DECIDE TO USE MY INSTRUCTIONS IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK! EVENTHOUGH THE RISK OF THIS
PROCEDURE IS VERY LOW.....
The EGR thermostat is a black plastic tube stuck between the radiator and the engine. It is represented as #8 in this picture (it would be wise to also replace the rubber O ring);
To access the EGR thermostat you have to take of the engines acoustic cover. Simply unbolt and take off.
Attachment 71574
Then you will clearly see the EGR thermostat. Take off the hose clamp and the hose and unbolt the EGR thermostat. The bolt nearest to the engineblock is covered by a tube. this tube is a vacuum hose (red dotted line in pictures) which powers your brakes. To be able to access the back bolt I unscrewed the vacuum hose (torx screw). I have indicated the vacuum hose screw with a red arrow. DO NOT FORGET TO RECONNECT THE VACUUM HOSE AFTER YOU HAVE REPLACED THE EGR THERMOSTAT OR YOU WILL NOT HAVE POWERED BRAKES AND YOU WILL HAVE TO PUSH THE BAKE PEDAL DAMNED HARD TO COME TO A STOP (DON'T ASK HOW I KNOW...
).
Attachment 71573
With the vacuum hose you will just have enough room to push the vacuum hose out of the way. Now you can unbolt the back bolt of the EGR thermostat. Now replace the thermostat and put everything back in the reversed order. As a check you could try to blow through your old EGR thermostat. If you manage to blow through it it is indeed broken and as a result is was letting collant into the radiator even at low engine temps.
PLEASE NOT THAT IF YOU DECIDE TO USE MY INSTRUCTIONS IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK! EVENTHOUGH THE RISK OF THIS
PROCEDURE IS VERY LOW.....
The EGR thermostat is a black plastic tube stuck between the radiator and the engine. It is represented as #8 in this picture (it would be wise to also replace the rubber O ring);
To access the EGR thermostat you have to take of the engines acoustic cover. Simply unbolt and take off.
Attachment 71574
Then you will clearly see the EGR thermostat. Take off the hose clamp and the hose and unbolt the EGR thermostat. The bolt nearest to the engineblock is covered by a tube. this tube is a vacuum hose (red dotted line in pictures) which powers your brakes. To be able to access the back bolt I unscrewed the vacuum hose (torx screw). I have indicated the vacuum hose screw with a red arrow. DO NOT FORGET TO RECONNECT THE VACUUM HOSE AFTER YOU HAVE REPLACED THE EGR THERMOSTAT OR YOU WILL NOT HAVE POWERED BRAKES AND YOU WILL HAVE TO PUSH THE BAKE PEDAL DAMNED HARD TO COME TO A STOP (DON'T ASK HOW I KNOW...
).Attachment 71573
With the vacuum hose you will just have enough room to push the vacuum hose out of the way. Now you can unbolt the back bolt of the EGR thermostat. Now replace the thermostat and put everything back in the reversed order. As a check you could try to blow through your old EGR thermostat. If you manage to blow through it it is indeed broken and as a result is was letting collant into the radiator even at low engine temps.
10-26-2009, 06:42 AM
#238
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Originally Posted by mini_me' post='791187' date='Feb 12 2009, 09:48 AM
For those who want to replace the EGR thermostat here is a short howto;
PLEASE NOT THAT IF YOU DECIDE TO USE MY INSTRUCTIONS IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK! EVENTHOUGH THE RISK OF THIS
PROCEDURE IS VERY LOW.....
The EGR thermostat is a black plastic tube stuck between the radiator and the engine. It is represented as #8 in this picture (it would be wise to also replace the rubber O ring);
To access the EGR thermostat you have to take of the engines acoustic cover. Simply unbolt and take off.
Attachment 71574
Then you will clearly see the EGR thermostat. Take off the hose clamp and the hose and unbolt the EGR thermostat. The bolt nearest to the engineblock is covered by a tube. this tube is a vacuum hose (red dotted line in pictures) which powers your brakes. To be able to access the back bolt I unscrewed the vacuum hose (torx screw). I have indicated the vacuum hose screw with a red arrow. DO NOT FORGET TO RECONNECT THE VACUUM HOSE AFTER YOU HAVE REPLACED THE EGR THERMOSTAT OR YOU WILL NOT HAVE POWERED BRAKES AND YOU WILL HAVE TO PUSH THE BAKE PEDAL DAMNED HARD TO COME TO A STOP (DON'T ASK HOW I KNOW... ).
Attachment 71573
With the vacuum hose you will just have enough room to push the vacuum hose out of the way. Now you can unbolt the back bolt of the EGR thermostat. Now replace the thermostat and put everything back in the reversed order. As a check you could try to blow through your old EGR thermostat. If you manage to blow through it it is indeed broken and as a result is was letting collant into the radiator even at low engine temps.
PLEASE NOT THAT IF YOU DECIDE TO USE MY INSTRUCTIONS IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK! EVENTHOUGH THE RISK OF THIS
PROCEDURE IS VERY LOW.....
The EGR thermostat is a black plastic tube stuck between the radiator and the engine. It is represented as #8 in this picture (it would be wise to also replace the rubber O ring);
To access the EGR thermostat you have to take of the engines acoustic cover. Simply unbolt and take off.
Attachment 71574
Then you will clearly see the EGR thermostat. Take off the hose clamp and the hose and unbolt the EGR thermostat. The bolt nearest to the engineblock is covered by a tube. this tube is a vacuum hose (red dotted line in pictures) which powers your brakes. To be able to access the back bolt I unscrewed the vacuum hose (torx screw). I have indicated the vacuum hose screw with a red arrow. DO NOT FORGET TO RECONNECT THE VACUUM HOSE AFTER YOU HAVE REPLACED THE EGR THERMOSTAT OR YOU WILL NOT HAVE POWERED BRAKES AND YOU WILL HAVE TO PUSH THE BAKE PEDAL DAMNED HARD TO COME TO A STOP (DON'T ASK HOW I KNOW...
).Attachment 71573
With the vacuum hose you will just have enough room to push the vacuum hose out of the way. Now you can unbolt the back bolt of the EGR thermostat. Now replace the thermostat and put everything back in the reversed order. As a check you could try to blow through your old EGR thermostat. If you manage to blow through it it is indeed broken and as a result is was letting collant into the radiator even at low engine temps.
10-28-2009, 11:27 PM
#239
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Originally Posted by mini_me' post='790166' date='Feb 11 2009, 05:15 AM
In my 'quest' te find the source of the higher-ish fuel consumption I checked my engine temp via the OBD hidden menu some time ago. It turned out the with an ambient temperature of about 5C the engine temperature would not exceed 65-70C.
The symptoms when driving are as follows; engine quickly reached temperature between 60-70C. When idling or in slow moving traffic the temp would go up to about 70C, when riding it would drop to about 64C. FYI all this time the shutters behind the front grill are closed.
You will hear a lot of people, including BMW mechanics (!!) say that this is normal behaviour for modern efficient DI diesels. In my book and with my engineering knowledge this is bullshit! I must say with also the BMW mechanics saying it is normal they had me in doubt but I am glad I stuck to my opinion that this isn't a correct temp even with lower ambient temps. Imagine what would happen when you would drive your car at -20C ambient temps, the engine wouldn't reacht 40C operating temp.
Even a very efficient engine should reach operating temp with all thermostats closed. After all with all thermostats closed the engine hardly gets any cooling since it is only using the short cooling circuit.
I was able to convince my dealer that low ambient temps should not prevent an angine (even a very efficient one) from reaching normal operating temp of about 90C. In an attempt to solve this they replaced the normal thermostat, which also in my belief, was causing all this. To my and their surprise this didn't solve the problem. As a double check they also took another 525D car and drove it around to check the temp on that car. (a good gesture I think!) This 2nd car also only reached 65C temp. So my case was closed as being strange but normal (since they double checked with other 525D).
After doing some searching on various forums I noticed that it could very well be the 2nd smaller EGR thermostat that was causing the problems. In my book this made sense since the fact that the engines temp dropped when driving to me indicated that somehow the radiator was involved in cooling the coolant.
A defective EGR thermostat (defective as in; opened all the time) will act as a bypass to the main thermostat. This 'bypass' is small, but still big enough tho drop the engine temps down to about 65C.
I decided to buy a new EGR thermostat and O-ring (total cast about EUR 31) and replaced it. Simple job which takes about 1/2 hour with good preperation.
The result; Engine quickly up to normal operating temp. of about 90C even with low ambient temps and my faith in BMW engineering restored.
I have added a simplified drawing of the cooling system including the EGT thermostat.
Attachment 71511
The symptoms when driving are as follows; engine quickly reached temperature between 60-70C. When idling or in slow moving traffic the temp would go up to about 70C, when riding it would drop to about 64C. FYI all this time the shutters behind the front grill are closed.
You will hear a lot of people, including BMW mechanics (!!) say that this is normal behaviour for modern efficient DI diesels. In my book and with my engineering knowledge this is bullshit! I must say with also the BMW mechanics saying it is normal they had me in doubt but I am glad I stuck to my opinion that this isn't a correct temp even with lower ambient temps. Imagine what would happen when you would drive your car at -20C ambient temps, the engine wouldn't reacht 40C operating temp.
Even a very efficient engine should reach operating temp with all thermostats closed. After all with all thermostats closed the engine hardly gets any cooling since it is only using the short cooling circuit.
I was able to convince my dealer that low ambient temps should not prevent an angine (even a very efficient one) from reaching normal operating temp of about 90C. In an attempt to solve this they replaced the normal thermostat, which also in my belief, was causing all this. To my and their surprise this didn't solve the problem. As a double check they also took another 525D car and drove it around to check the temp on that car. (a good gesture I think!) This 2nd car also only reached 65C temp. So my case was closed as being strange but normal (since they double checked with other 525D).
After doing some searching on various forums I noticed that it could very well be the 2nd smaller EGR thermostat that was causing the problems. In my book this made sense since the fact that the engines temp dropped when driving to me indicated that somehow the radiator was involved in cooling the coolant.
A defective EGR thermostat (defective as in; opened all the time) will act as a bypass to the main thermostat. This 'bypass' is small, but still big enough tho drop the engine temps down to about 65C.
I decided to buy a new EGR thermostat and O-ring (total cast about EUR 31) and replaced it. Simple job which takes about 1/2 hour with good preperation.
The result; Engine quickly up to normal operating temp. of about 90C even with low ambient temps and my faith in BMW engineering restored.
I have added a simplified drawing of the cooling system including the EGT thermostat.
Attachment 71511
OK at the end of a long discussion can I try and summarise the mini_me revelations.
1.) MANY of us have noticed if otherwise perfectly maintained 525/530/535 diesel uses much more fuel than you expect if might be because it is not reaching operating temperature and taking longer to reach that temperature. This will be particularly noticable if you use the car on short trips.
2.) BMW dealers are often blind to this as no faults are recorded in the computer.
3.) The operating temperature is controlled by 2 thermostats. Replacing the main therm has a big effect, I recorded a 14% better economy on the same route. BUT also the exhause gas recirculation (EGR) thermostat will bypass the main therm if faulty. Your car will warm up even faster with a replaced faulty EGR thermostat.
4.) Before my car ran in the 70 degrees range (see other posts how to see the hiddden temperature menu), 84 with main therm changed, this was were the big economy gains were and approx 90 with the EGR therm replaced. Meaning it hit operating temperature easily on the run to the supermarket.
4.) It is easier to replace the EGR comprared to the main thermostat which is a mechanics job. In the UK I receommend speciliasts and Bosche garages do this for a fraction of the price of main dealers e.g RA Engineering in Berkshire. Total cost less than ?200.
10-30-2009, 01:09 PM
#240
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My Ride: BMW E61 525DSE Auto Touring.
2004 54 plate
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my 2004 525dse ran at about 74 degrees
i replaced the egr thermastat about 3 months ago
and it now runs at 79-80 on a run and upto 83 around town
car is in for its mot in a couple of weeks and have arranged
for the main themastat to be replaced then, hope it warms up
quicker as it is getting colder and hope the mpg gets better
i replaced the egr thermastat about 3 months ago
and it now runs at 79-80 on a run and upto 83 around town
car is in for its mot in a couple of weeks and have arranged
for the main themastat to be replaced then, hope it warms up
quicker as it is getting colder and hope the mpg gets better