problem solved; engine 525D not reaching operating temperature.
03-26-2009, 05:04 AM
#161
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Originally Posted by Stephen F' post='826105' date='Mar 25 2009, 10:04 AM
Hi,
I use Specialist Cars BMW in Stevenage and have done since 2004
I have had a long list of problems with my current car so know the staff at the service desk quite well, it has been in several times previously for poor fuel consumption at the same time as other issues. The service desk, the techs and the service manager have always been very helpful but unable to solve the MPG problem.
I am always very calm and polite with the staff no matter how frustated I am with the damn car - this makes a huge difference.
My car had previoulsy attained good mpg and the techs were aware of this, when I read about the EGR thermostat and cool running issue I investigated and found my car to be running cool.
As I have the BMW insured warranty with a ?100 excess I bought the thermostat myself for ?22 and spent the 10 mins fitting it. It made quite a difference but still not up to temp so I popped in to the dealer mid afternoon when I knew it would be quiet and showed them the broken EGR thermostat, explaining whole thing and that I initially got the info from a BMW forum
One of the techs (paul I think) came and had a look at it and immediately agreed that cool running would mean poor MPG stating the car should ruN at 90-91c and was surprised at the failed EGR thermostat stating he had never had to change one but stated that a failed open thermostat would not show up on the diagnostics.
I mentioned that it was still not attaining full running temp and the main thermostat was probably also faulty, he agreed that this was probably correct as there is no other reason for the car to run cool so they agreed to order a new main thermostat and do the work under warranty.
My car also doing DPF regeneration every 400-450 miles
On collecting the car I was informed the tech had driven the car before and after to confirm the temp readings and was really pleased the problem had finally been solved with the car now reaching normal temp very quickly.
I was asked to run the car for a few tanks and to let them know how it was going.
The thermostat problem is clearly affecting a lot of cars with very few being resolved as most are undetected, I would suggest trying a different dealer or even Specialist Cars at Stevenage, speak to Jim at the service desk and he will know all about it.
Or get your dealer techs to contact Specialist Cars to confirm changing the thermostat cured the cool running on my car.
My MPG is now 37 with mixed short journeys compared to 27-28 before the thermostats were changed!!!
On the motorway it will now sit above 40mpg where it used to refuse to go above 30mpg.
Solving this problem will save countless wasted visits to dealers and a lot of frustration for owners and dealer service departments
Do you have a BMW or a third party warranty??
Not sure how you would get on if it is a third party warranty.
Please feel free to PM me and leave your phone number and I will give you a call if you need any more info
Stephen
I use Specialist Cars BMW in Stevenage and have done since 2004
I have had a long list of problems with my current car so know the staff at the service desk quite well, it has been in several times previously for poor fuel consumption at the same time as other issues. The service desk, the techs and the service manager have always been very helpful but unable to solve the MPG problem.
I am always very calm and polite with the staff no matter how frustated I am with the damn car - this makes a huge difference.
My car had previoulsy attained good mpg and the techs were aware of this, when I read about the EGR thermostat and cool running issue I investigated and found my car to be running cool.
As I have the BMW insured warranty with a ?100 excess I bought the thermostat myself for ?22 and spent the 10 mins fitting it. It made quite a difference but still not up to temp so I popped in to the dealer mid afternoon when I knew it would be quiet and showed them the broken EGR thermostat, explaining whole thing and that I initially got the info from a BMW forum
One of the techs (paul I think) came and had a look at it and immediately agreed that cool running would mean poor MPG stating the car should ruN at 90-91c and was surprised at the failed EGR thermostat stating he had never had to change one but stated that a failed open thermostat would not show up on the diagnostics.
I mentioned that it was still not attaining full running temp and the main thermostat was probably also faulty, he agreed that this was probably correct as there is no other reason for the car to run cool so they agreed to order a new main thermostat and do the work under warranty.
My car also doing DPF regeneration every 400-450 miles
On collecting the car I was informed the tech had driven the car before and after to confirm the temp readings and was really pleased the problem had finally been solved with the car now reaching normal temp very quickly.
I was asked to run the car for a few tanks and to let them know how it was going.
The thermostat problem is clearly affecting a lot of cars with very few being resolved as most are undetected, I would suggest trying a different dealer or even Specialist Cars at Stevenage, speak to Jim at the service desk and he will know all about it.
Or get your dealer techs to contact Specialist Cars to confirm changing the thermostat cured the cool running on my car.
My MPG is now 37 with mixed short journeys compared to 27-28 before the thermostats were changed!!!
On the motorway it will now sit above 40mpg where it used to refuse to go above 30mpg.
Solving this problem will save countless wasted visits to dealers and a lot of frustration for owners and dealer service departments
Do you have a BMW or a third party warranty??
Not sure how you would get on if it is a third party warranty.
Please feel free to PM me and leave your phone number and I will give you a call if you need any more info
Stephen
hi
just spoke to Paul at at Specialist Cars, he was very helpfull and and remebered you, Stephen. He explained the whole issue and agreeded that the poor MPG is 99% due to the car not reaching max temp. But in any case he had to still have the car diagnosed from them for half hour labour, just so they can see if that is the problem. They will take it for a drive for 10-15 minutes and the go into the hidden menus and record the temp. then they will take it in the work shop put it on the diagnosis tool to see if there are any other faults with the car.
I told him that the car once reached 90+ deg after a 10 mile journey but when i checked the temp. i was in stationary traffic and i took a reading of 90+deg but soon as the car began to drive again the temp dropped down to 86 deg.
He said that the car would reach 90+ deg even if the Main or EGR Thermos. were at fault as the car has no circulation from the air outside when it was sat stationary but soon as you drive the car temp would go down. The car should reach 90+ deg on a motorway run and my car only gets to 86 deg on the motorway. ie the car computer think its running to cool and throws more diesel into the engine, (i suppose it a bit like a CHOKE on the older vehicles)
I'm in the process of booking a appointment to see him, or may go and see my local dealer and get them to call Paul so that he can explain to them a little more about the situation.
03-26-2009, 05:24 AM
#162
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My Ride: 2004 E61 530D SE Auto, Silver Grey, Media pack, Visibilty pack, Panaoramic roof, Active Steering, Black leather, Memory seats, folding mirrors, extended lighting etc etc
Originally Posted by smarty156' post='827131' date='Mar 26 2009, 12:43 PM
Stephen - you're a star!
Phoned Jim at Specialist Cars Stevenage and my car is now booked in for replacement of the main thermostat under warranty!
They're also going to look into a slight vibration I have - he mentioned knowing of heat shields coming loose which is what it sounds like so he seems to know his stuff.
Getting it done on 9th April as that's when I'm going up to Peterborough again. I'll let you know how I get on.
Phoned Jim at Specialist Cars Stevenage and my car is now booked in for replacement of the main thermostat under warranty!
They're also going to look into a slight vibration I have - he mentioned knowing of heat shields coming loose which is what it sounds like so he seems to know his stuff.
Getting it done on 9th April as that's when I'm going up to Peterborough again. I'll let you know how I get on.
In case you don't know the service dept is a seperate building from the showroom, about 500m away over a mini roundabout. Obvious when you know but saves you looking like a numpty in the showroom!
I spoke to BMW customer service yesterday re the whole thermostat issue, they stated that dealers should be submitting a PUMA? report via their internal systems informing BMW and other dealers of the problem and explain how to fix it - bit like this forum I suppose
Lets hope they are doing this as thermostat failure must be a really widespread issue, there is no way the average 5 series owners reads forums and it seems to be affecting loads of us just on here!!
Should probably be a recall job but is not a safety issue so unlikely to ever happen, I expect the thermostats will be in short supply very soon though.
Does anybody know exactly what the engine running too cool does??
I know it probably causes extra wear and tear but if the engine thinks it is still trying to warm up what is it doing in terms of fueling, ecu and gearbox settings etc etc.
The reason I ask is my car now drives differently, my wife always said it felt like it was dragging a bit and you had to use more throttle than you should to maintain a given speed.
It now cruises with very little throttle, changes up sooner and is smoother when changing gear
03-26-2009, 05:45 AM
#163
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Originally Posted by mini_me' post='827137' date='Mar 26 2009, 12:56 PM
If it reaches 90+ while riding (so not when parked) then it should be ok. Still have the bad MPG? What is you current MPG?
In the morning my 525D will also take about 10MLS to reach 91 (it is rock solid at 91 after that).
As said the 6cil 525D is a larger diesel engine and this combined with the fact that modern DI diesel have higher efficiency (thus lower heat production) you will never reach
operating temps in just a few miles of normal driving.
In the morning my 525D will also take about 10MLS to reach 91 (it is rock solid at 91 after that).
As said the 6cil 525D is a larger diesel engine and this combined with the fact that modern DI diesel have higher efficiency (thus lower heat production) you will never reach
operating temps in just a few miles of normal driving.
my current mpg was 20mpg, but had the car remapped does 22.6mpg now. i think it should be a lot better as some forum members have reported having done 28-31mpg with similar driving conditions
03-26-2009, 06:55 AM
#164
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Originally Posted by Stephen F' post='827149' date='Mar 26 2009, 01:24 PM
Really glad I could, Jim is a really nice bloke and does know his stuff, he is always on your side and will go the extra mile to help you out.
In case you don't know the service dept is a seperate building from the showroom, about 500m away over a mini roundabout. Obvious when you know but saves you looking like a numpty in the showroom!
I spoke to BMW customer service yesterday re the whole thermostat issue, they stated that dealers should be submitting a PUMA? report via their internal systems informing BMW and other dealers of the problem and explain how to fix it - bit like this forum I suppose
Lets hope they are doing this as thermostat failure must be a really widespread issue, there is no way the average 5 series owners reads forums and it seems to be affecting loads of us just on here!!
Should probably be a recall job but is not a safety issue so unlikely to ever happen, I expect the thermostats will be in short supply very soon though.
Does anybody know exactly what the engine running too cool does??
I know it probably causes extra wear and tear but if the engine thinks it is still trying to warm up what is it doing in terms of fueling, ecu and gearbox settings etc etc.
The reason I ask is my car now drives differently, my wife always said it felt like it was dragging a bit and you had to use more throttle than you should to maintain a given speed.
It now cruises with very little throttle, changes up sooner and is smoother when changing gear
In case you don't know the service dept is a seperate building from the showroom, about 500m away over a mini roundabout. Obvious when you know but saves you looking like a numpty in the showroom!
I spoke to BMW customer service yesterday re the whole thermostat issue, they stated that dealers should be submitting a PUMA? report via their internal systems informing BMW and other dealers of the problem and explain how to fix it - bit like this forum I suppose
Lets hope they are doing this as thermostat failure must be a really widespread issue, there is no way the average 5 series owners reads forums and it seems to be affecting loads of us just on here!!
Should probably be a recall job but is not a safety issue so unlikely to ever happen, I expect the thermostats will be in short supply very soon though.
Does anybody know exactly what the engine running too cool does??
I know it probably causes extra wear and tear but if the engine thinks it is still trying to warm up what is it doing in terms of fueling, ecu and gearbox settings etc etc.
The reason I ask is my car now drives differently, my wife always said it felt like it was dragging a bit and you had to use more throttle than you should to maintain a given speed.
It now cruises with very little throttle, changes up sooner and is smoother when changing gear
Thanks for the tip about directions - I've no idea where it is!
Have to say, since I did the EGR thermostat I also think my car holds gears more rather than in the past it would change down too readily.
By the way, Jim said keep him informed of how your fuel consumption is going.
Hopefully, once this is sorted I will be getting a remap so it will be interesting to see how different it is after that.
I think BMW do have a major issue with these thermostats. I had a brand new courtesy car recently and that also wasn't getting up to temperature. I'm thinking the supplier has a quality control issue.
03-26-2009, 07:13 AM
#165
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I just called K&M a specialist in Maidenhead that I've used before and trust.
- Not something he has come accross
- He knew of the EGR is a valve but not an EGR thermostat? he could not see the part did we described. Problems with EGR usually result leads to a flat spots. Hard to see how an EGR thermostat can bypass main coolant thermostat - one manages water cooling the other exhaust gases back into the engine for emissions control.
- To replace the main thermostat ?140 incl.
- He agreed the that it appears 30 minutes to get to 80 degrees is a long time maybe it is running cool. Petrols run at 104 but he could not confirm what a 530d should be.
- Not something he has come accross
- He knew of the EGR is a valve but not an EGR thermostat? he could not see the part did we described. Problems with EGR usually result leads to a flat spots. Hard to see how an EGR thermostat can bypass main coolant thermostat - one manages water cooling the other exhaust gases back into the engine for emissions control.
- To replace the main thermostat ?140 incl.
- He agreed the that it appears 30 minutes to get to 80 degrees is a long time maybe it is running cool. Petrols run at 104 but he could not confirm what a 530d should be.
03-26-2009, 08:08 AM
#166
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My car is extremely stable at 91C and im pretty sure this is at or very near operating temps for a modern diesel. (My passat also ran at 90C).
Lower temps will have the motor management using more fuel hence the lower MPG.
@parmblagan; my car now averages around 40MPG (UK). This is with a lot of motorway driving. One thing I have noticed about the 5 series diesels (or any other big diesel car) is that MPG drops very heavily under city driving conditions. So you might not achieve 40MPG but 20 ish also sounds bad to me!
Lower temps will have the motor management using more fuel hence the lower MPG.
@parmblagan; my car now averages around 40MPG (UK). This is with a lot of motorway driving. One thing I have noticed about the 5 series diesels (or any other big diesel car) is that MPG drops very heavily under city driving conditions. So you might not achieve 40MPG but 20 ish also sounds bad to me!
03-26-2009, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jer' post='827192' date='Mar 26 2009, 03:13 PM
I just called K&M a specialist in Maidenhead that I've used before and trust.
- Not something he has come accross
- He knew of the EGR is a valve but not an EGR thermostat? he could not see the part did we described. Problems with EGR usually result leads to a flat spots. Hard to see how an EGR thermostat can bypass main coolant thermostat - one manages water cooling the other exhaust gases back into the engine for emissions control.
- To replace the main thermostat ?140 incl.
- He agreed the that it appears 30 minutes to get to 80 degrees is a long time maybe it is running cool. Petrols run at 104 but he could not confirm what a 530d should be.
- Not something he has come accross
- He knew of the EGR is a valve but not an EGR thermostat? he could not see the part did we described. Problems with EGR usually result leads to a flat spots. Hard to see how an EGR thermostat can bypass main coolant thermostat - one manages water cooling the other exhaust gases back into the engine for emissions control.
- To replace the main thermostat ?140 incl.
- He agreed the that it appears 30 minutes to get to 80 degrees is a long time maybe it is running cool. Petrols run at 104 but he could not confirm what a 530d should be.
03-26-2009, 09:40 AM
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The only issue I have now is my commute to work is only 6 miles of some 30's and some 60's but often its stop and go traffic, I checked the car this morning and it doesnt get a chance to reach full operating temp due to the slow speeds. Its fine in a 60 and it reaches 90 within 5 miles, I guess i'll just have to live with it. My MPG is better though, and the car doesnt feel as sluggish as before. You dont need to be as heavy on the pedal to move. I cant wait to see the mpg over a week.
03-26-2009, 11:12 AM
#169
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I just did more testing tonight.
10 minutes to get to 52? - surburban
13 minutes to get 60?
18 minutes to get to 70? slow out of town
21 minutes flattens to 75-77?
30 minutes touched 80? briefly
Journey stats - 15 miles 37.8mph avg, 28.2 mpg avg
Stopped at Sainsburys Hoegarten ?2 a bottle (perhaps I should have gone Dutch) then after 50 minutes temperature got up to 82-84? in town.
I gotta thermostat problem or the secret temp guage speaks with forked tongue.
So to summarise all the great contributions particularly from mini me : We have a situation where a faulty (unreported to the management computer) coolant thermostat stays open, this has the twin effects of both increasing the time the engine takes to get to temperature and at recent ambient temperatures reduces the maximum temperatures the engine reaches to below optimum 90ish degrees. This is caused because a faulty thermostat failing to throttle coolant flow to the radiator based on engine temperature leading to the engine reaching a operating temperature based on maximum cooling capacity at ambient temperature. This causes the engine to simulate being constantly in warm up mode and in turn screws up fuel economy.
So we can guess that as the weather warms up the gap will close and we'll get more mpg as the higer ambient temperature and "open" thermostat leads to a closing between. I expect in Summer our 80 something degrees will hit the
I'm going to get the thermostat checked first I'm sure it worked for mini me but no so sure why the Exhast gas recirculation thermostat effects mpg and warm up time. This should also report in the case of a fault to the management computer. Does'nt EGR Exhaust Gas Recirculation Taps some of the exhaust and adds it to the normal mix at high rpm?
Lets see how quick I can get the main thermostat replaced and then so what happens.
10 minutes to get to 52? - surburban
13 minutes to get 60?
18 minutes to get to 70? slow out of town
21 minutes flattens to 75-77?
30 minutes touched 80? briefly
Journey stats - 15 miles 37.8mph avg, 28.2 mpg avg
Stopped at Sainsburys Hoegarten ?2 a bottle (perhaps I should have gone Dutch) then after 50 minutes temperature got up to 82-84? in town.
I gotta thermostat problem or the secret temp guage speaks with forked tongue.
So to summarise all the great contributions particularly from mini me : We have a situation where a faulty (unreported to the management computer) coolant thermostat stays open, this has the twin effects of both increasing the time the engine takes to get to temperature and at recent ambient temperatures reduces the maximum temperatures the engine reaches to below optimum 90ish degrees. This is caused because a faulty thermostat failing to throttle coolant flow to the radiator based on engine temperature leading to the engine reaching a operating temperature based on maximum cooling capacity at ambient temperature. This causes the engine to simulate being constantly in warm up mode and in turn screws up fuel economy.
So we can guess that as the weather warms up the gap will close and we'll get more mpg as the higer ambient temperature and "open" thermostat leads to a closing between. I expect in Summer our 80 something degrees will hit the
I'm going to get the thermostat checked first I'm sure it worked for mini me but no so sure why the Exhast gas recirculation thermostat effects mpg and warm up time. This should also report in the case of a fault to the management computer. Does'nt EGR Exhaust Gas Recirculation Taps some of the exhaust and adds it to the normal mix at high rpm?
Lets see how quick I can get the main thermostat replaced and then so what happens.
03-26-2009, 11:33 AM
#170
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i too have just come back from doing some test just like our friend JER
got back from work today, journey is just under 5 miles, through stop and start traffic, car only got to about 76 degrees. (that's from ambient temperature -76 degrees)
came home and after about an hour went back out and started the car and went to the menu to find the cars temp was at 56 degrees, drove about 3/4 of a mile and parked up,car was at 88 degrees, but kept the engine running for about 10 minutes and again checked the temperature to find that the cars temperature had gone up to 94 depress.
drove of again and and took her for 2.5 mile run and the temperature went done to 87 degrees.
mpg for that run was 22.4 mpg.
the question is that, I understand that when the car is stationary, it will heat up faster as the air from the outside isn't cooling down the engine, but there is only 3 degrees difference from my cars 87 degrees, and what the members on the forum are saying, the optimum temperature should be 90 degrees.
so if you guys were in my situation would you still be will to spend the money to have the main thermo replaced, (already replaced the EGR thermo)
got back from work today, journey is just under 5 miles, through stop and start traffic, car only got to about 76 degrees. (that's from ambient temperature -76 degrees)
came home and after about an hour went back out and started the car and went to the menu to find the cars temp was at 56 degrees, drove about 3/4 of a mile and parked up,car was at 88 degrees, but kept the engine running for about 10 minutes and again checked the temperature to find that the cars temperature had gone up to 94 depress.
drove of again and and took her for 2.5 mile run and the temperature went done to 87 degrees.
mpg for that run was 22.4 mpg.
the question is that, I understand that when the car is stationary, it will heat up faster as the air from the outside isn't cooling down the engine, but there is only 3 degrees difference from my cars 87 degrees, and what the members on the forum are saying, the optimum temperature should be 90 degrees.
so if you guys were in my situation would you still be will to spend the money to have the main thermo replaced, (already replaced the EGR thermo)