Hi Friends:

The "can or will my car ever be able to play MP3's" question comes up with frequency. I tried to put together a brief answer to this question pertinent to the US 04 and through mid-year 05 545i's and, I presume, other 5-Series cars of this genre. My answer was based on info das provided on a related thread. Here is the answer I concocted.

"I think the answer depends partly on your hardware. I don't think any 04's have the right hardware. With the right hardware, 19.02.03 will allow MP3 provided one has Pro Nav/CCC (apparently, Car Communication Computer)--which as I understand the issue is the standard NAV in the US on at least on the E60's. If one's car does not have the right hardware, then it is doubtful that he or she will ever be able to play MP3's since a software update alone will not likely do the trick. das says: 'as of right now, my Week 40 vehicle with Nav Pro/CCC and E060-05-09-535 (CIP 19.02.03) can play MP3s in the single slot CD player.' I think a build in week 40 of 2005 is the key for having the right hardware."

And, at the time of my answer, I had not tried to play an MP3 in my June of 05 purchased 545i. Later, the following info turned up on a thread.

big ipaq: "E60s, regardless of their production year, that have M-ASK and pro radio, have MP3 with the latest software. Mine does. Iceman explained this already on more than one ocasions."

BigGrey: "I have Nav Pro. How do i know if i have a pro radio?"

Iceman: "Nav Pro comes with Radio Pro!"

BigGrey: "Ok then: i have radio pro, but no mp3 playback... sad.gif . Tried all variations and cd formats and 128/192/254 bit stream with no success. Maybe with 20 CIP... We will see..."

Iceman: "That's correct. You have nav pro, so you have radio pro... and this means you need to wait for the new software."

So, what's the point? Well, I ripped a CD with Music Match Juke Box, burned the resulting MP3 files to a CD, put the CD in my single-CD slot, and, to my surprise, it played. It seems to me that my car may not satisfy the necessary criteria that have been mentioned before in at least two ways:

1. My car was built before June 05; thus, if "newer" hardware is an issue, then I would guess that I don' have it and
2. I have only CIP 19.01.01 (my car recently was "updated" to 19.01.01, but I don't actually know what came in my car).

I do have pro NAV (i.e., US NAV) and, thus, apparently, pro Radio. I have seen M-ASK referred to as "the central computer." Do I necessarily have M-ASK? How would I know? CCC, as indicated, apparently refers to "Car Communication Computer." I presume I have CCC, since my car "communicates" in various ways. But, OK, then do I necessarily have CCC? How would I know?

And, the bottom line is that I am wondering if anyone can put all the pieces that I have mentioned above, and maybe more, together to provide an integrated picture of when one should expect his or her US E60 to be able to play MP3's (i.e., What are the actual necessary conditions that must be satisfied?) Thanks for any, and all, attempts.

Don, so it looks like your "older" MY05 with US spec navigation DOES play MP3? Mine should be same spec as yours, and I just got the v19 update - will try it tomorrow and report back.

vnod - I know this is way off topic, but when I was reading your thread I looked at your profile and pictures of your ride
Nice car
Were you really born in 1906?

I hope it works for you. I'll be interested in seeing what happens. Good luck. And, I take it that you mean that you now have at least 19.01.01. Right? Oops, now I see that you have 19.2, but I don't know what that is--19.02.0X???

Thank you for the compliment on my car. Nope, not really born in 1906. I wanted my birthday to show up on our calendar, and the year of birth is not essential to doing so. So, for slightly more annonymity, I chose 1906 for my birth year. Others have phony birth years for similar reasons. As I recall, Rudy set his "public" birth year to be the same as the build year for his car (or one or more of his cars) since they share the same birth month and day.

after reading some of your other threads I was going to say it would be cool to see a 99 year old doing 0-60 tests
as far as anonimity - I'm not very anonymos - anyone that reads my posts will probably no who I am

by the ways = this is a great post and I am interested in the results becasue I would like to know.

I would like to see a table
for example:
04 no
05 with pro nav no
06 without nav - yes

as far as that goes what is the difference b/n pro and business nav and ccc and m-ask?

Annonymity probably is not necessary, but there are crazies out there, present company excluded, of course. :) Yes, I told pretty much all I know about the things you mention above. I too would like as much clarification as anyone, in the know, knows. My table entry would be something like:

Pre-week 40 build 05--Correct Hardware--Pro NAV--Pro Radio--Correct CCC (I guess)---Correct M-ASK (I quess)

Oh, and, I will be doing 0-60 tests when I am 99.

Vnod: Could you pls check the contents of the CD you burned? I did the samething as you did - I had ripped a few CDs to my hard drive in MP3 format. When I burned them using Music Match Jukebox burner - it actually burned the songs in CDA (CD Audio) format (the songs had CDA extention rather than MP3). I then burned another one, but this time I made sure that the songs were burned in MP3 format. And my conclusion: the MP3 CD did not play in the in-dash CD player. The first one (CDA format) did.

Let me know what you see on your CD.

Vnod: Could you pls check the contents of the CD you burned? I did the samething as you did - I had ripped a few CDs to my hard drive in MP3 format. When I burned them using Music Match Jukebox burner - it actually burned the songs in CDA (CD Audio) format (the songs had CDA extention rather than MP3). I then burned another one, but this time I made sure that the songs were burned in MP3 format. And my conclusion: the MP3 CD did not play in the in-dash CD player. The first one (CDA format) did.

Let me know what you see on your CD.
[/quote]I know what you are saying. When I look at the disk, I see the CDA extension, but, yes, the CD was burned from MP3's. I did not notice before that the extensions for the tunes on the CD were CDA. I simply assumed that the files were burned the way they were stored on my computer.

So, then, most likely, my car won't play MP3's. And, I would imagine that the qualitative difference between the CDA's and the MP3's would be significant. For example, one of the CDA files is only 2 KB, while the corresponding MP3 file is 9.25 MB. Do you know much about the difference in the two types of files? I virtually never fiddle with MP3's so much of the non-issue I apparently have raised is due to my lack of "MP3 practice."

Can MP3's be burned as CDA's in such a way that the CDA's are of equivalent quality to the MP3's? If so, then a difference that makes no difference is no difference. I'll check all of this out tomorrow, but, for now, what more do you know about the CDA format in relation to the MP3 format?

You are correct, you can not play MP3's. This is a common misconception that MP3's burned to a CD create an MP3 disk and has created a lot of confusion on this board. The primary difference between the two is compression. You can only fit about 10-15 CD on a disk versus, oh I don't remember, probably 40 MP3's on a disk.

I noted above that "one of the CDA files is only 2 KB, while the corresponding MP3 file is 9.25 MB." Then, I asked about the possibility of burning the CDA files in such a manner that qualitatively they are the equivalent of the MP3 files. If possible, then would the CDA files be much larger? How much larger? From what you say, would they be about 4 times as large?

I have to wonder why anyone would really care if they could get only 15 versus 40 tunes on a CD--given that the quality is no different. To me, the issue is not how many decent quality tunes I can get on a CD, but, rather, it is can I put tunes from different CDs on a CD with quality at least as good as MP3. Please explain to a non-MP3er what the issues are.

had to get up to see a patient so thought I'd check out the site again and saw this post and had to respond

mp3 is a way to shrink the files down in size - if you shrink the files down to 128 bits ( the smallest mp3 will allow) then you can several hundred songs on a cd
I could not get 128 to work and had to use 192 and each song averages 4mb - and you can get 70 mb on a cd so I got well over a hundred songs on the cd
with mp3 you can also store in files
for example I made a beatles file and put my favorite 40 beatles songs in it and another file for guns and roses
you could also makes a beatles file and the a subfile withe each album separatley - it also displays the artist name and song title
and there is a random function(I think have not verified yet) that you can just put in the mp3 cd and it will randomly play the songs on the cd

not sure what cda is but if you burn a regular cd it is in minutes and you can only get about 74 minutes on a cd

the mp3 quality is worse than regular cd quality, but I can not tell - but the regualr US stereo also sounds good to me

That is why the ipod is supposedly so good - it shinks the files down to almost mp3 size but the sound quality is supposedly better, but again my ear hears no difference.

Right, good info. Have a great trip, and, as said, be careful. We don't want to have an "incident" report from you when you get back.

I noted above that "one of the CDA files is only 2 KB, while the corresponding MP3 file is 9.25 MB." Then, I asked about the possibility of burning the CDA files in such a manner that qualitatively they are the equivalent of the MP3 files. If possible, then would the CDA files be much larger? How much larger? From what you say, would they be about 4 times as large?

I have to wonder why anyone would really care if they could get only 15 versus 40 tunes on a CD--given that the quality is no different. To me, the issue is not how many decent quality tunes I can get on a CD, but, rather, it is can I put tunes from different CDs on a CD with quality at least as good as MP3. Please explain to a non-MP3er what the issues are.
[/quote]

The compression between CD Digital Audio and a typical MP3 is actually more like 10 times. The reason you see the .cda file as being only 2KB is because of the way the OS displays CD Digital Audio files (merely as "references" to the real content; this is because a CD audio disc isn't a data CD, but Windows, for example, will "display" the tracks as if they are actual data "files", even though they aren't). A typical track on a CD is around 40-50MB while an MP3 is 3-4MB.

So it's not 15 vs 40. Its more like 15 vs 150-200, depending on the bitrate used.

The compression between CD Digital Audio and a typical MP3 is actually more like 10 times. The reason you see the .cda file as being only 2KB is because of the way the OS displays CD Digital Audio files (merely as "references" to the real content; this is because a CD audio disc isn't a data CD, but Windows, for example, will "display" the tracks as if they are actual data "files", even though they aren't). A typical track on a CD is around 40-50MB while an MP3 is 3-4MB.

So it's not 15 vs 40. Its more like 15 vs 150-200, depending on the bitrate used.
[/quote]
Thanks das. Your reply totally clarifies what I wanted to know except about the quality issue. Is there any reason at all to think that MP3's would be of higher quality than CDA's--if ripped as WAV files in the first place? If not, then it would appear that the only advantage of being able to play MP3's is because one can get more files on a CD. To me, the higher quality of WAV CDA's, if true, would far outweigh the capacity advantage of MP3's. And, when I talk about quality, I am not talking about perceived quality, I am talking about the absence of information loss.

In thinking about these issues, what would the qualitative difference be if the ripping was to MP3's in the first place and MP3 CDA's were produced? No qualitative difference I presume??? I ran across an interesting read on perceptions concerning MP3's, Pro MP3's, and anther format--which I can't remember the name of now. I'll post a link if I can find the read again.

As I said above, you'll be very hard pressed to distinguish a CD from a high quality MP3 played in a car.

If you ripped a CD and created MP3 files, then burned a CD with those files and uncompressed them to CDA, the resulting CD sound would not be as pristine as the original CD, since most compression algorithms are "lossy" meaning that in the compression process, data is discarded, so even after being uncompressed, the file has lost some data.

You might want to search here to learn more about this:
http://www.wikipedia.org/

When you rip from a CD and create an MP3 file, the software compresses the file, and depending on the bit rate of the resulting file, the sound quality will differ. An MP3 file, since it's compressed, will theoretically have lesser sound quality than a CDA file (which is uncompressed). If you use high quality ripping/encoding software and a reasonably high bit rate (I use Exact Audio Quality w/ LAME encoder @ 256kbps VBR & then normalize with MP3Gain), the resulting MP3 files can be very close to CD quality, especially if you're going to play them in a car (which is a suboptimal audio environment). The sound quality of the MP3s I play on my iPod in the car is so close to CD quality, than even an audiophile would be hard pressed to tell the difference while driving.

Here's EAC/LAME info:
http://users.pandora.be/satcp/tutorials.htm

Here's MP3Gain info:
http://mp3gain.sourceforge.net/

The advantage of MP3s is file compression and therefore ability to hold more music on a given amount of storage space.

If you ripped a CD and created MP3 files, then burned a CD with those files and uncompressed them to CDA, the resulting CD sound would not be as pristine as the original CD, since most compression algorithms are "lossy" meaning that in the compression process, data is discarded, so even after being uncompressed, the file has lost some data.

You might want to search here to learn more about this:
http://www.wikipedia.org/
[/quote]
Thanks very much Stream. All that you say helps a great deal. At this point, since my car can't play MP3's after all, I will be burning only CDA disks--where the only point is allowing creation of my own "playlists." In this regard, from what you say, I won't be starting from MP3's. If I truly want quality (no information loss) as high as that as on the original CDs (might also be playing them on home audio--not just in car), then how would I proceed. My best attempt, I think, so far has been to RIP using Windows Media Player's lossless format. But, I think that this format still employs some compression???? So, is there a better starting point? And, are the audio files created using the process I described WAV files. They are identified simply as Windows Media Audio Files on my computer. Thanks much again for your thoughts/help.

It is amazing how can we all be investing so much time trying to sort out what our cars will be able to do or not...
It had to be a software issue... :whistle:

So, as a software engineer, i know that the answer is really simple as long as we talk to the right guys: the ones who do the damn system. Who are they? Not "BMW guys" for sure that you can reach using our so knowledgeless dealers...
Any clues? Iceman? I will do some investigation on the net...

Whatever you can find out would be greatly appreciated I am sure. I just wonder if the issue is purely software, or as das suggested, partly hardware too. I am hoping for the former. While CDA's are fine with me, it would be nice to utilize the storage capacity allow my MP3's sometimes.

Whatever you can find out would be greatly appreciated I am sure. I just wonder if the issue is purely software, or as das suggested, partly hardware too. I am hoping for the former. While CDA's are fine with me, it would be nice to utilize the storage capacity allow my MP3's sometimes.
[/quote]
I know it is not only software. But the guys that build it know the dependencies on the hardware and software versions (or CIP versions). And they also know the meaning of the versions described in the "secret menu".

Just got my car back from the dealer

Software up graded to 19.02
I have a MY05 545 production date 02/05.
Ripped mp3's using Nero ... will not play (using data cd)
Ripped mp3's using Roxio ... will not play

BTW lawyer screen does not dissappear
as i've read in other posts.

You have just reminded me that my American neighbour has a 545i USA version with NavPro so i will do some testing on his car with the five mp3 cds i burned to test to see the results! Will try to compare software versions too.

You have just reminded me that my American neighbour has a 545i USA version with NavPro so i will do some testing on his car with the five mp3 cds i burned to test to see the results! Will try to compare software versions too.
[/quote]Do you recall the thread where someone with an "older" USA 545i claimed to play MP3's? Is this car the one you are referring to above? I wonder if he is making the same CDA mistake I was.

Slightly off topic but, here's some information on the various formats.

CDA: CDA (CD Audio) files are the uncompressed files that appear on a purchased Audio CD. They can be played by most players, or ripped to compressed formats to save disk space.

WAV: WAV files are uncompressed and as such, are usually only used for audio tracks that are not longer than a few seconds. Some users with plenty of hard drive space will convert Audio CDs tracks to wav files because they are almost universally supported, however, generally, this is not an efficient use of hard drive space.

MP3: MP3 is the most ubiquitous lossy compression format, and MP3 files can be played by most portable digital audio players and many DVD players. MP3s are often ripped at 128 Kbps, achieving decent quality, although the discerning audiophile will often notice artifacts at this bitrate and choose to encode them at a higher bitrate (160 or 192 Kbps).

WMA: WMA (Windows Media Audio) files use a Microsoft format, that, like MP3, is lossy. It isn't nearly as ubiquitous as MP3, due in part to the fact that it is perceived as a proprietary format and is supported on fewer devices and DVDs than MP3. On the positive side, though, WMA files have noticably better quality than MP3 files encoded at equivalent bitrates.

OGG: OGG is a relatively new format, that like MP3/WMA, is lossy, but is generally considered to be equivalent or better in quality compared to MP3 files encoded at similar bitrates. What distinguishes OGG from MP3 and WMA is that the format is an open specification and may be distributed freely, meaning that any company can use it at no cost. Because it is relatively new, few devices support OGG, however, this is likely to change in the near future. For best quality, OGG files are generally encoded at a setting of quality=5 which results in bitrates of ~140-150 Kbps (OGG only uses as much bandwidth as is required).

I have posted the details so often, I can't do it again and again... I'm getting tired of it. Sorry.
The truth can be find in a lot of threads regarding this topic.

The most of the infos I have posted are directly from VDO Siemens! rom the guys working on this stuff. It got verified through my BMW contacts. Unfortunately there is a lot of stuff I can't post here, regarding MP3...

What a tease!!! :whistle:

I know, I know - you have to maintain confidentiality and trust of your contacts.

Iceman has posted several attempts at summarizing the the who can and who cannot on MP3 and they are in several threads. I started to search for them and list, but ran out of patience. I might try again later to "assemble" the summary threads.

There was also the question of CCC versus M-ASK. M-ASK is for all NON-NAV systems. If u have NAV you are CCC. This is completely independant of Pro Radio or Business Radio.

The details on CCC are here: http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=1722

Although we were expecting a similar detailed discussion on M-ASK, I have been unable to locate it yet, if we have it.

Do you recall the thread where someone with an "older" USA 545i claimed to play MP3's? Is this car the one you are referring to above? I wonder if he is making the same CDA mistake I was.
[/quote]

how about this
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=19517
he has an 06 530 and claims to be able to play mp3's

OMG, not another one of these threads. Can we add something to the faq so that people know what is what? Some still do not understand between a regular audio CD and a data MP3 cd.. Geezus.

Here's the final answer:

US cars ONLY!
Cars w/o PRO NAV can PLAY MP3 DATA CDS

CARS BUILT BEFORE 10/2006 w PRO NAV CANNOT PLAY MP3 DATA CDS!

When testing:

MAKE SURE YOU ARE BURNING A DATA CD, NOT AUDIO. PICK MORE THAN 30 SONGS.

cd, thank you much for the link and info. Yes, it is too hard to trace down all the prior threads. I was hoping that we would end up with a new thread having "everything" on it.

Here is what I think we know--Pro NAV, Pro Radio, and CCC all go together. M-ASK is not an issue unless one does not have NAV. We may, or may not, need different hardware if the build date is prior to 10/05. And, software at least as old as E060-05-09-535/CIP 19.02.03 yields MP3 play provided accepable hardware is installed. I know we can't verify our CIP versions via our iDrives, but can we verify our E060 ... numbers using the iDrive? Many of us know our CIP versions. Maby knowing the CIP version implies the E060 number. If so, does anyone know what E060 value goes with CIP 19.01.01.

In its index, my 5-Series manual, which is supposed to apply to my 545i, says "MP3, refer to Compressed Audio Files 157." Then, page 157 of my manual says "insert the CD into the drive with the labeled side up. Playback starts automatically if the sound output is on. For CDs with compressed audio files, it can take up to 50 seconds to read the data depending on the directory structure."

I gave it one more try--making a new MP3 CD and testing it on other MP3 players. The CD definitely contains MP3, and it defintely plays on the other MP3 capable players. While it was not a big deal to me, I was told that my car would play MP3's before purchasing it. And, this view seems to be confirmed by my manual. Recently, I have become more interested in the MP3 issue partially because I am supposed to have it and do not.

So should, and can, BMW's feet be held to the fire on this issue. That is, is BMW responsible for providing any hardware and software upgrades necessary for those of us rightfully expecting MP3 capability?

I for one, am reserving judgement on BMW's efforts until they release the software for the CCC equipped cars. If, after that, something remains amiss then I'll look at my next course of action. Right now I have too many choices as it is (FM, CD, AUX and SAT) to listen to all that I have. I have CDs made of MP3s I use on some other vehicles I drive, but they are duplicated on my iPod like MP3 player. Plus that holds 100s of albums without switching CDs or making make dups of what I have already assembled. So it probably would boil down to supporting the "principle" of the thing when/if it comes to that. And I also like "toys" and staying abreast of the latest in BMW news :lol:

I am not hard of hearing despite my age. :) 10/2006 :nono: 10/2005 :thumbsup: And, why can't cars built before 10/2005 play MP3s. Is the problem hardware, software, or both? I assume the problem is hardware since software can be updated to the latest on the pre-10/2005 5-Series cars. And, of course, one does not need to pick more than 30 songs. All that is necessary is to verify that the files on the CD are MP3's. But, I know what you are getting at.

Right, I guess you mean CIP 20.whatever. And, to add to my confusion, can I even hook my iPod up using the auxillary port or whatever? I know some are using iPods, but others have indicated problems. My car's description is in my sig, and, as indicated above, it was purchased in 6/05. I would appreciate any info you can provide on the iPod-usage issue too. Thanks again.

Right, I guess you mean CIP 20.whatever. And, to add to my confusion, can I even hook my iPod up using the auxillary port or whatever? I know some are using iPods, but others have indicated problems. My car's description is in my sig, and, as indicated above, it was purchased in 6/05. I would appreciate any info you can provide on the iPod-usage issue too. Thanks again.
[/quote]
All the AUX Input does is allow you to connect ANY audio source (CD, DVD, Tape, MP3 player) to you audio entertainment system and play the sound through system. In that way when you use phone, or Nav lady (man) it interrupts the sound from the source just as if it were CD, or radio. Being that it is only audio, you do not control any of the named devices I listed other than by the devices' controls be they on the unit or some remote control provided by its mfr. This is OEM on the 3 series, but 5 and 6 series owners must go get it retro fitted. But because we are retro fitting we can ask for the jack to be placed where we want it although the default is in the glove box (mine is there and works well for my purposes). So far I am aware that all '04, '05, and '06 models have used the same part number for this retrofit kit. Some forum members have done some real good custom installs of various aspects including device holders, plugs and power. Me - I just took what they gave me. Works for any combo of NAV, no NAV, Pro or Business Radio, L7 or not makes no difference. Also note that for the DVD this is only the audio portion and does not imply that you can see DVD video. For that u need more mods.

And yep, CIP 20 is the current thinking, and I hope any delays in getting this released means we really get MP3 and not that it is pushed off and yet another CIP version later.

One of the difficulties in tracking changes in CIPs is that the Svc Bulletins only show fixes, not enhancements. However, this has been such a BIG issue I hope they do at least mention it. So we might see the CIP 20 SIB without knowing if MP3 is included or not until actual testing by member owners.

Correct, only if you're talking US version. Business nav in Europe (not available in US) has M-ASK. And also means it can play MP3. Mine does.

In Europe I have Business Nav. I also have Logic7 and because of it, I have Pro Radio. Iceman explained this probably too many times. And he did it very well...

This thread is giving me a headache... :wow:

Seems it belongs in parts/accessories/mods...no, it's getting so off topic (with the file format alphabet soup discussions) that probably the lounge would be appropriate :P ...or, even, better, here:

Music file format discussion :whistle:

All the AUX Input does is allow you to connect ANY audio source (CD, DVD, Tape, MP3 player) to you audio entertainment system and play the sound through system. In that way when you use phone, or Nav lady (man) it interrupts the sound from the source just as if it were CD, or radio. Being that it is only audio, you do not control any of the named devices I listed other than by the devices' controls be they on the unit or some remote control provided by its mfr. This is OEM on the 3 series, but 5 and 6 series owners must go get it retro fitted. But because we are retro fitting we can ask for the jack to be placed where we want it although the default is in the glove box (mine is there and works well for my purposes). So far I am aware that all '04, '05, and '06 models have used the same part number for this retrofit kit. Some forum members have done some real good custom installs of various aspects including device holders, plugs and power. Me - I just took what they gave me. Works for any combo of NAV, no NAV, Pro or Business Radio, L7 or not makes no difference. Also note that for the DVD this is only the audio portion and does not imply that you can see DVD video. For that u need more mods.

And yep, CIP 20 is the current thinking, and I hope any delays in getting this released means we really get MP3 and not that it is pushed off and yet another CIP version later.

One of the difficulties in tracking changes in CIPs is that the Svc Bulletins only show fixes, not enhancements. However, this has been such a BIG issue I hope they do at least mention it. So we might see the CIP 20 SIB without knowing if MP3 is included or not until actual testing by member owners.
[/quote]
Thanks for the great info on the Aux input. I have saved it.

Your link is a good source. Thanks.

It's been so long (for me anyways) waiting for the MP3, it's no longer an issue. I DREAD going to the stealer, since they always manage to do some damage to my car when it's in for service.

I have my iPod Nano and the AUX, which is a very welcome alternative. I still wonder though, if 10/05 cars are out w/ Pro Nav, and they have 19.xx something and can play MP3s, it makes me think ours won't ever be able to.