E60 not as good as old E39
02-28-2009 | 11:14 AM
#11
Senior Members
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
From: West London
My Ride: 545 SE Auto in Black
Originally Posted by chris f' post='804001' date='Feb 28 2009, 07:25 PM
I had an e39 before my 360 and that was a much more reliable car, no problems in 18 months of ownership.
My e60 by comparison broke down on the second day of ownership, nothing but problems with it.
Gearbox is shocking, the gearchange is better in a cheap ford, mpg is shocking and ride quality is skittish, the car does not feel sure footed at all.
Very disappointed with it.
My e60 by comparison broke down on the second day of ownership, nothing but problems with it.
Gearbox is shocking, the gearchange is better in a cheap ford, mpg is shocking and ride quality is skittish, the car does not feel sure footed at all.
Very disappointed with it.
03-01-2009 | 08:37 AM
#12
Contributors
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 852
Likes: 0
From: london england
my thoughts exactly, if you guys are not happy, just sell the thing and buy a car your happy with, its not rocket science, i would never drive or own a car that i was unhappy with...lifes too short.
same goes for my girlfriend..
(good job i love her)
same goes for my girlfriend..
(good job i love her)
03-01-2009 | 10:50 PM
#13
Members
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
From: Kent, England.
Not as simple as that, I'm consulting with a solicitor about returning the car as not fit for purpose or of satisfactory quality.
The dealer is refusing to play ball at the moment, we'll see about that when it goes to court.
The dealer is refusing to play ball at the moment, we'll see about that when it goes to court.
03-02-2009 | 02:00 AM
#14
Contributors
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 852
Likes: 0
From: london england
based soly on what you have put on an open forum...you would not stand a hope in hell, you have said your not happy with the E60 (not because there is much wrong with it) but because it is not as good as your old E39
you sighted MPG (not an issue for return or the courts)
gearbox and ride...well you should have test driven the car and been happy before parting with your signiture.
cars do have problems.....im sure the dealer fixed the problem that happened the second day (you didnt say what it was?)
i appreaceate your not happy with your E60 but thats YOUR problem and not the car's
can i take a guess here and (this is the conspirisy theoryist here) that you may be in negitive equity here, and want to get out of your contract/HP ? because of the credit crunch, a lot of people bought just before it all went sour, and are paying back a lot more than the car is worth? (just guessing
)
you sighted MPG (not an issue for return or the courts)
gearbox and ride...well you should have test driven the car and been happy before parting with your signiture.
cars do have problems.....im sure the dealer fixed the problem that happened the second day (you didnt say what it was?)
i appreaceate your not happy with your E60 but thats YOUR problem and not the car's
can i take a guess here and (this is the conspirisy theoryist here) that you may be in negitive equity here, and want to get out of your contract/HP ? because of the credit crunch, a lot of people bought just before it all went sour, and are paying back a lot more than the car is worth? (just guessing
)
03-02-2009 | 09:13 AM
#15
Members
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
From: Kent, England.
I have not previously actually detailed what went wrong with the car and what has caused me to take it to a legal level.
to give you an idea, this is an excerpt from my letter to the dealer in question. My car developed a problem within 2 days of ownership, and despite several visits to various dealers the car still has a fault, the gearbox doesn't seem to know if its a gearbox or if its a toaster, I think my toaster would give a smoother pull away.
The problems are:
1. CD Changer magazine was missing
2. Toolkit contents missing
3. Interior cigarette burn holes
4. Vehicle documentation (handbook etc) missing
5. No prior service history
6. Scuff on front bumper
7. Paintwork general condition poor
8. Only 1 key supplied
9. Cigarette lighter socket inoperable
10. Parking sensors inoperable
11. Battery collapsed
12. Airbag system total failure
13. Battery cable failed
14. Power windows system failure
15. Drivers door speaker faulty
16. Gearbox oil leak
17. Gear change inconsistent/uncomfortable
18. Boot spoiler lifting
19. Airbag system partial failure
20. Instrument panel creaking
21. Seatbelt mount creaking
Do you think this counts as excessive faults and the car is not fit for purpose now.
Unless of course its purpose is to cause me unimaginable grief and spend lots of time at the dealers, if that were the case then its done exceptionally well
to give you an idea, this is an excerpt from my letter to the dealer in question. My car developed a problem within 2 days of ownership, and despite several visits to various dealers the car still has a fault, the gearbox doesn't seem to know if its a gearbox or if its a toaster, I think my toaster would give a smoother pull away.
The problems are:
1. CD Changer magazine was missing
2. Toolkit contents missing
3. Interior cigarette burn holes
4. Vehicle documentation (handbook etc) missing
5. No prior service history
6. Scuff on front bumper
7. Paintwork general condition poor
8. Only 1 key supplied
9. Cigarette lighter socket inoperable
10. Parking sensors inoperable
11. Battery collapsed
12. Airbag system total failure
13. Battery cable failed
14. Power windows system failure
15. Drivers door speaker faulty
16. Gearbox oil leak
17. Gear change inconsistent/uncomfortable
18. Boot spoiler lifting
19. Airbag system partial failure
20. Instrument panel creaking
21. Seatbelt mount creaking
Do you think this counts as excessive faults and the car is not fit for purpose now.
Unless of course its purpose is to cause me unimaginable grief and spend lots of time at the dealers, if that were the case then its done exceptionally well
03-02-2009 | 09:21 AM
#16
Members
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
From: Toronto, CANADA
My Ride: 2008 535i / Black Sapphire / Premium / Navigation / Bluetooth / PDC / USB Audio Integration / 6 Speed Sport Automatic with Steptronic / Logic 7 / Comfort Access / Auto Folding Mirrors / Comfort Seats / Rear Heated Seats / 35% Tint All Around / Black Dakota Leather
Originally Posted by dieseltouring' post='803790' date='Feb 28 2009, 05:14 AM
Hi all,
After five years in an E39 530d, taken the plunge and just bought a LCI E60 530d. Advice to others thinking of doing this? Think very carefully. There are improvements, but some things are significantly worse. Sad to say my >100k mile E39 is, overall the better car.
First the E60 positives:
Looks - M Sport E60 Makes the E39 look old inside and out. Hated look of E60 when it first came out, but it has aged very well and now looks great.
Interior feels special
iDrive / Sat Nav is a bit slow, but good despite what some say
Overall, refinement is better - but see comments below
Diesel engine note and lack of clatter is much more sophisticated
Slightly bigger and has more space
And the negatives: (big ones)
The fuel consumption is significantly worse. (thought mine was faulty, but read here and everyone is the same) LCI official figures are a joke
You feel more engine vibration through steering and pedals (particularly when cold and accelerating hard). Again, read here, others say the same
Low resonance at idle makes car noisy at rest
These are significant issues. How the LCI E60 can be less economical than a 10 year old design I have no idea, but it is. My consumption has decreased almost 20%. Ok I have gone from Manual to Auto, but with LCI difference should not be that big. I do almost all gentle motorway miles and have gone from 42mpg to 35 (brim to brim). Engine vibration too. Have BMW skimped on the engine mounts? The slight high frequency vibration through the steering spoils the up market feel of the car.
Small negatives:
Ride with RFT
Lack of small stowage space in the cabin
Smaller less useful door pockets
No adjustable seatbelt height
No Aux heater
No seperate intensive screen wash
No temp guage
No digital A/C heater temp displays
The E39 grew on me as the time went by. My two month view of the E60 is one of disappointment. If it was stolen, not sure I would replace it, which says it all.
After five years in an E39 530d, taken the plunge and just bought a LCI E60 530d. Advice to others thinking of doing this? Think very carefully. There are improvements, but some things are significantly worse. Sad to say my >100k mile E39 is, overall the better car.
First the E60 positives:
Looks - M Sport E60 Makes the E39 look old inside and out. Hated look of E60 when it first came out, but it has aged very well and now looks great.
Interior feels special
iDrive / Sat Nav is a bit slow, but good despite what some say
Overall, refinement is better - but see comments below
Diesel engine note and lack of clatter is much more sophisticated
Slightly bigger and has more space
And the negatives: (big ones)
The fuel consumption is significantly worse. (thought mine was faulty, but read here and everyone is the same) LCI official figures are a joke
You feel more engine vibration through steering and pedals (particularly when cold and accelerating hard). Again, read here, others say the same
Low resonance at idle makes car noisy at rest
These are significant issues. How the LCI E60 can be less economical than a 10 year old design I have no idea, but it is. My consumption has decreased almost 20%. Ok I have gone from Manual to Auto, but with LCI difference should not be that big. I do almost all gentle motorway miles and have gone from 42mpg to 35 (brim to brim). Engine vibration too. Have BMW skimped on the engine mounts? The slight high frequency vibration through the steering spoils the up market feel of the car.
Small negatives:
Ride with RFT
Lack of small stowage space in the cabin
Smaller less useful door pockets
No adjustable seatbelt height
No Aux heater
No seperate intensive screen wash
No temp guage
No digital A/C heater temp displays
The E39 grew on me as the time went by. My two month view of the E60 is one of disappointment. If it was stolen, not sure I would replace it, which says it all.
What year is your E60? If it's brand new, then you are experiencing sort of what I experienced during my break-in period. Mileage will improve and vibrations will decrease over time. So don't worry.
03-02-2009 | 11:05 AM
#17
Contributors
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 852
Likes: 0
From: london england
Originally Posted by chris f' post='805418' date='Mar 2 2009, 02:13 PM
I have not previously actually detailed what went wrong with the car and what has caused me to take it to a legal level.
to give you an idea, this is an excerpt from my letter to the dealer in question. My car developed a problem within 2 days of ownership, and despite several visits to various dealers the car still has a fault, the gearbox doesn't seem to know if its a gearbox or if its a toaster, I think my toaster would give a smoother pull away.
The problems are:
1. CD Changer magazine was missing
2. Toolkit contents missing
3. Interior cigarette burn holes
4. Vehicle documentation (handbook etc) missing
5. No prior service history
6. Scuff on front bumper
7. Paintwork general condition poor
8. Only 1 key supplied
9. Cigarette lighter socket inoperable
10. Parking sensors inoperable
11. Battery collapsed
12. Airbag system total failure
13. Battery cable failed
14. Power windows system failure
15. Drivers door speaker faulty
16. Gearbox oil leak
17. Gear change inconsistent/uncomfortable
18. Boot spoiler lifting
19. Airbag system partial failure
20. Instrument panel creaking
21. Seatbelt mount creaking
Do you think this counts as excessive faults and the car is not fit for purpose now.
Unless of course its purpose is to cause me unimaginable grief and spend lots of time at the dealers, if that were the case then its done exceptionally well
to give you an idea, this is an excerpt from my letter to the dealer in question. My car developed a problem within 2 days of ownership, and despite several visits to various dealers the car still has a fault, the gearbox doesn't seem to know if its a gearbox or if its a toaster, I think my toaster would give a smoother pull away.
The problems are:
1. CD Changer magazine was missing
2. Toolkit contents missing
3. Interior cigarette burn holes
4. Vehicle documentation (handbook etc) missing
5. No prior service history
6. Scuff on front bumper
7. Paintwork general condition poor
8. Only 1 key supplied
9. Cigarette lighter socket inoperable
10. Parking sensors inoperable
11. Battery collapsed
12. Airbag system total failure
13. Battery cable failed
14. Power windows system failure
15. Drivers door speaker faulty
16. Gearbox oil leak
17. Gear change inconsistent/uncomfortable
18. Boot spoiler lifting
19. Airbag system partial failure
20. Instrument panel creaking
21. Seatbelt mount creaking
Do you think this counts as excessive faults and the car is not fit for purpose now.
Unless of course its purpose is to cause me unimaginable grief and spend lots of time at the dealers, if that were the case then its done exceptionally well
so this was a second hand car? in that case you definatly wont win in court, because you should have checked for "cigarette burns etc"/paint work and veh history, they are basic checks when buying a car. the tools missing, and cd changer you will have to prove that they were in the car to start with or that the dealer said he would replace them.
all the electrical problems you list are down to one thing...the battery. (if the batterys knackered you cant say all the electrics are goosed...thats a pre requisite.)
it does sound like you bought a lemon, but im afraid thats down to you, why did you buy blind?? i would have asked for those things to be fixed (in writing) before signing/paying or looked for another car.
the problems you list (although look a lot) are very minor and easly fixed.
try talking (not arguing) with the dealer and trying to comprimise? it might work in your favour?
good luck anyway.
03-02-2009 | 11:37 AM
#18
Contributors
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 0
From: Bay Area California
My Ride: 2005 BMW 545i Sport Package, Jet Black
M166 OEM Wheels
M5 Style Body kit
RPI Scoop
BMC Air Filter
Valentine One Radar Detector
35% tint all around
I agree with the autor. I also went from 2003 E39 to 2005 E60 - 545i.
In general, E39 was much more solid car. It seems like quality was better - no creaks, all materials were in great shape - like new.
No doubts, there is a significant improvement in technology and performance - and that's why I bought e60. it's more powerfull, loaded with all thi options,
BUT:
for 6 month I had the car I took it to the shop numerous times - this cars (e60) seem to need a lot of extra care. It's known to be noisy (creaks), leather on the steering wheel wearin out already, the rim cracked (and it seems like almost every 545 owner had that problem). Plus transmission feels weird and need reporogramming, Idle when the car is stopped. RFT tires are expensive but bad ride - going to replace them - hating it. AC motor makes some ticking sound - going to check that soon and more (like parking lites malfunction etc. - need to buy new bulbs)
Over all, yes - e60 drives great. But needs much more attention then e39. Quality is worse.
In general, E39 was much more solid car. It seems like quality was better - no creaks, all materials were in great shape - like new.
No doubts, there is a significant improvement in technology and performance - and that's why I bought e60. it's more powerfull, loaded with all thi options,
BUT:
for 6 month I had the car I took it to the shop numerous times - this cars (e60) seem to need a lot of extra care. It's known to be noisy (creaks), leather on the steering wheel wearin out already, the rim cracked (and it seems like almost every 545 owner had that problem). Plus transmission feels weird and need reporogramming, Idle when the car is stopped. RFT tires are expensive but bad ride - going to replace them - hating it. AC motor makes some ticking sound - going to check that soon and more (like parking lites malfunction etc. - need to buy new bulbs)
Over all, yes - e60 drives great. But needs much more attention then e39. Quality is worse.
03-02-2009 | 12:40 PM
#19
Contributors
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,790
Likes: 0
From: Helsinki, Finland
My Ride: My ex-ride: EU '08 LCI 520dA. Space Grey, Sport Seats in Black Leather/Fabric Anthracite, Sport Steering Wheel, A/C with Extended Features, Hi-Fi Speakers, Cup Holders, Cruise with Braking function, Folding Rear Seats, Xenons, Park Distance Control.
Originally Posted by ObD' post='804016' date='Feb 28 2009, 09:58 PM
1) The E60 is heavier than the E39.
2) The E60 engine makes more power and torque than the E39.
3) The E60 auto transmission is geared different from the E39 manual.
2) The E60 engine makes more power and torque than the E39.
3) The E60 auto transmission is geared different from the E39 manual.
1) The E60 is actually a bit lighter than the E39
2) Some engines did, but most E60 engines (in '03 - '05) where actual old E39 ones
3) The E60 did get a 6 gear auto, compared to the old 5 gear one
I still say, compare the LCI E39 to the LCI E60.
I wouldn't like to live in the 20th century no more, and I see the E39 as one of the
most ugly looking 5-series BMW's since the 02-series.
But the old E39 was voted three years in a row as the best car in the world - the E60 never.
03-02-2009 | 02:04 PM
#20
Members
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
From: Kent, England.
Originally Posted by Dr Dave' post='805552' date='Mar 2 2009, 08:05 PM
so this was a second hand car? in that case you definatly wont win in court, because you should have checked for "cigarette burns etc"/paint work and veh history, they are basic checks when buying a car. the tools missing, and cd changer you will have to prove that they were in the car to start with or that the dealer said he would replace them.
all the electrical problems you list are down to one thing...the battery. (if the batterys knackered you cant say all the electrics are goosed...thats a pre requisite.)
it does sound like you bought a lemon, but im afraid thats down to you, why did you buy blind?? i would have asked for those things to be fixed (in writing) before signing/paying or looked for another car.
the problems you list (although look a lot) are very minor and easly fixed.
try talking (not arguing) with the dealer and trying to comprimise? it might work in your favour?
good luck anyway.
all the electrical problems you list are down to one thing...the battery. (if the batterys knackered you cant say all the electrics are goosed...thats a pre requisite.)
it does sound like you bought a lemon, but im afraid thats down to you, why did you buy blind?? i would have asked for those things to be fixed (in writing) before signing/paying or looked for another car.
the problems you list (although look a lot) are very minor and easly fixed.
try talking (not arguing) with the dealer and trying to comprimise? it might work in your favour?
good luck anyway.
Its called buying at distance and different rules apply. When you ask a dealer over the phone if the vehicle is of a decent standard and he replies yes, then that is admissible.
The dealer that had this car was in Lincoln and i didn't fancy doing a 340 mile round trip to view the car, when you buy a BMW from a BMW dealer at the sort of price I paid, you expect to get something that is of a reasonable quality. This was not.
I'm a reasonable man, I have allowed them to attempt to fix it, they have not.
In my opinion, a car that pulls away in 2nd gear from a standstill when you do not want it to is dangerous. The one time you need the car to go, for example pulling out, and it doesn't will be the time you get hurt.
It only happens occasionally but its enough to worry me every time I pull away, will the car be in 1st or wont it?!
Unacceptable in my view