alex123

Thanks, Ilyam5!
That is what I was looking for also, I wonder why don't they use Torsen or Limited Slip, Is it a cost factor?

urbo73

I missed those threads, but I completely agree with you. Had I known I wouldn't have asked. I can drive just fine, but this DTC garbage was confusing me and didn't make sense. Now it does and it's still garbage!

I knew what I was talking about from driving experience. It felt wrong.

Can BMW please get rid of the DTC HACK and give us a real LSD? Otherwise, I stand by what I said earlier which most didn't like: The E60 is a sedan - not a sports car. That's the M class like I said before as well.

I also have to agree about the Active Steering. It was the only reason I didn't get the sports package for my car. I drove around with it before ordering my car and found it idiotic - sorry to all who praise it. It's junk IMO. Marketing crap. Sounds good and may feel good to some, but I can't stand it. If you've ever raced or autocrossed, you are used to driving a certain way which MAKES SENSE. I don't need my car to vary the amount of steering input based on speed. Sounds good, but it's bad in practice. Thank God I don't have that to deal with.

You see, RWD cars, if designed properly are not very bad to drive in the winter. But no LSD is bad on this expensive a car. As is Active Steering and the DTC hack to cover the fact that there is no LSD. But because of all this garbage, people say now that the E60s are tough to drive in the winter. It shouldn't be that way. And YES I CAN drive my car in snow, but it's a pain to keep correcting.

Ilyam5

Good question. I ask myself the same.. WHY BMW WHY?

The only drawback of LSD is relative reliability. The most complex ones (like M dif in M3) require more maitenance (oil change) and more service (replacing more often - probably every 50- 70K miles depending on how aggressively you drive). Those clutches I guess do wear out. Less complex ones (like M5 or Ouife) will last much longer. LSD shouldn't be that expensive. Judging from quife and dinan pricing 2-3KUSD as aftermarket, so for BMW it would have been much less.

So first reason is just that - less headake for BMW to replace or fix LSDs (cheaper as well)

Second - they want to keep M cars exclusive and give them the goodies. (I don't quite get it. I stronly belive M trechnology should trickle down to all BMW cars. Especially if the technology is already there. Money is spent on R&D . Why not spread the cost and give LSD and SMG 2 as options on non M cars?)

Third - BMW presents themselves as car for entusiasts, but it really is run by accountats like all other busineses (maybe with the exeption of M division who do get to do a lot of cool stuff).
So they believe only M customers drive their cars aggressively, the rest are just potting around - therefore do not require the technology. Instead we'll give them nanys (like DSC, DTC, active steering) to keep them out of trouble and save some money.
(I don't agreee with that either especially on a $70K 545 which cost as much as e39 M5). But they didn't give LSD to z8 customers who were considered mostly older wealthy people taking the car to promenades along the cost. There were a lot of pissed off z8 owners on m5board.com

Ilyam5

I wouldn't completely damn the technology. It works but it has limitations. And I totally agree with you the car should drive properly wothout any gizmos. Gizmos should help not replace the necesary elements.

Another thing you are right about - the e60 5 series is a luxury sedan. I would not take it to the track either. e39 M5 was a different story - it does just fine on the track, but still is too heavy and not as comfortable for everyday use.

From the way you drive BMW will probably classify you as M custmer and will try to sell you M3 (my choice) or M5 ($90K is tough to swallow though. I might pass on that one)

As for active steering - the idea is not bad - it's all in the execution. I drove the first iteration in Germany a year ago and didn't like it at all. v15 software fixed most of the issues - I kind of like it now, but still would prefer the option to turn it off (in the snow for example). Maybe v.25 will have it all configurable on the i-drive like door locks

urbo73

I should add that after all of this, I'm still happy with my car I got a 530i with the Steptronic BECAUSE I wasn't looking for a sports car. If I was, as I've said before, I would have gone M w/o an automatic transmission. I've always said that to me the E60 is luxury sedan first and sports second.

But still, I was surprised to find out the E60 doesn't have a LSD. I just assumed (my bad!) that BMWs do have them. It's annoying to have to dig for information on DTC and such, and how things REALLY work though, but it doesn't mean I won't be driving my car or enjoying it. It's just that it SHOULD be better IMO. Because for the amount of money the car costs, it should be safer to drive in bad weather by people who may not care about DSC/DTC/etc. I see people at work complain about their BMWs in the snow and now I wonder - what if...? It's not so much about driving an E60 as agressively as one would an M5, but safely.. I know E60 owners who drive tamely and they have issues with snow. THAT is bad when it doesn't have to be so.

Guest

urbo73:

I think you are approaching this whole issue from a wrong angle, although i can realise why, since you are trying to understand a new system and fit it within your previos experience/expectations. I admire and respect you seeking the knowldege and sometimes in situations like these, a clean sheet approach is needed. The whole traction control issue is to a huge proportion a SAFETY matter. MOST drivers are not as skilled or technically proficient as you are. Therefore IMHO the inclusion of traction control is a worthy thing. I myself like having that extra measure of safety regardless of how aware of conditions I am or how good my driving skills are. In normal day to day driving, even if i was Micheal Schumacher i would leave the system in full operation. Would you drive your car today with ABS OFF (if you could switch it off) in day to day situations? I wouldnt.
However since BMW is aimed towards sportier (note i said sportier, they have other cars which are suited to racing etc, but we are talking about e60s here) driving, therefore it allows us a measure of control on the intervention of system, as opposed to some manufactruers in whose cars you can NEVER switch it off.
Therefore: in normal driving mode in a e60 when wheel spin is detected the throttle is cut (somteites VERY quickly, you can feel the sudden lack of propulsion), and by braking individual wheels the car is kept straight, thats why its called STABILITY CONTROL; in DTC (dynamic traction control)- one button press-DTC letters on in dash, the throttle is not cut till MUCH later, and you get some wheel spin, and the car will slide around a little, but not much since the wheel brakes are still apllied individually although a little later ( BMW sez: "The driver is in full control of their vehicle within a predetermined parameter" ie you have a little sandbox of stability angles to play within). However for when you want to do whatever you like, long button press, and the triangle thingy sign in the dash, totally removes any safety control from throttle or brakes, so you have a car just like the ol days!
BTW To clear a confusing issue, the system is turned ON when you switch on the ignition, and remains ON until when button presses switch it OFF (and the lights come on to indicate various OFF states!)

Sooooo to sum it up:
DSC: Safe
DTC: A little bit of fun
Everything off: Do whatever at your own risk!

DISCLAIMER: the above is what ive learnt from my research, feel free to correct me and dont take it as gospel!

And lastly just look at formula one; traction control and other electronic gizmos were for the last few years, the winning factor for the successful teams, so they have their uses for performance also!

Guest

me again!
I just reread your last post and you mention:
-------------------------------------------------
It's just that it SHOULD be better IMO. Because for the amount of money the car costs, it should be safer to drive in bad weather by people who may not care about DSC/DTC/etc.
-----------------------------------------------

That is PRECISELY why the whole system is there and comes on everytime you switch on the ignition. It Does meake it safer to drive in bad weather. And believe me for "normal" people traction control just like ABS is a huge safety advantage.
Hope my posts helped you! enjoy the car!

urbo73

I'm not arguing or pushing for anyone to turn it off!!! I've said this before in fact - look above. That was never my intention at ALL. Why would it be? It would be like me trying to convince people that a manual transmission is the ONLY way to go, etc. I'm never against safety, but it should add - not mask things. Of course I like ABS, etc. I'm pro technology, but again not just for technology's sake at the expense of masking things (i.e lack of a LSD) on a car. And that is precisely what DTC does. And not very well in fact..

So I just wanted to know how it worked that's all. It was confusing, and not only to me. That is why the thread even went into a "driving" direction as I ALSO said before. I get it now, but how many people knew beforehand exactly how it worked? Not many judging from the replies I got, except for one! And how many E60 owners know that are not even interested in reading Internet forums? You see? And they should NOT have to know to push 10 buttons or hold this down for one second or 10. That's silly to be honest with you. Do you think the average E60 owner who can care less about what DSC or DTC means, even bothers to touch that button - ever? Most owners don't even read the manual which is vague and dances around the subject. So if you want to talk about safety, then we have to assume DSC on all the time for the average user who doens't know what DTC is and when to use it or not. So I feel bad for those who have no clue and get stuck in snow, on hills, or on driveways. And there are plenty of those, of not the majority. We on this forum are a minority of enthusiasts. We WANT to know everything about our cars and how they work, regardless of how we (well at least me) drive them. Again, I've said I don't drive my car aggressively - it's a 530iA! I bought it knowing how I would drive it. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't know how everything is supposed to work.

Once I understood that the issue is that DTC is a "hack" for not having an LSD on the E60, it all made sense! But my last point, after I found this out, was that such a luxury car as the E60 SHOULD have a LSD. Because that would make it easier to drive in snow at times and more predictable. And this is for EVERY driver. It would make the car more predictable. As it stands, DTC is just - OK. A "hack" as I call it. Re-read my last post.

And a LSD in my opinion should not only be on an M class car. It should be on a luxury sedan in this price range. It's not about how agressive you drive. It IS about safety.

Mercy

I always thought everyone hated LSD and that it sucked. I for one, I'm really happy that it's not on our cars. No wonder when I disabled the whole DSC system I launch out like a rocket.

PS: I don't drive my car in the snow.

Ilyam5

Hey, Mercy

You are mixing things up. Open differentials - that's what everybody hates. Limited slip differentials improve your traction and make launches much faster.

Read the link

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

during aggressive launch you need to have all systems off (DSC and DTC, since little wheelspin will improve traction and warm up the tires). There are very few surfaces when left and right wheel have the same traction (unless you are on the dragstrip). Even then the smallest amounts of sand, oil, water will reduce traction on one of the wheels. 545 with open dif will just spin this wheel silly and smoke it an not move.

LSD equipped cars will transfer torque to the wheel with grip and launch much faster.

Launch control in M3 SMG and new M5 work this way (both have LSD) with pretty impressive results.