alex123

I think we all got it: some people leave it ON some OFF, that is probably why BMW gave us an option to begin with. But a question remains: How does it work, exactly?

sj3

This is an action-packed thread, as threads go!

urbo... reports: "If you're taking your E60 to the track, you've bought the wrong car IMO. "

Respectfully, I could not disagree more. Here's why... bmwna chapters support 'track school'. The purpose of these schools is NOT racing; in fact, there's no passing allowed unless someone waves you by. Their purpose is to teach you where your and your car's limits are and exactly what will happen when you approach them and how to react/manage these situations. The pepole that run these schools do everything to make the environment safe and you have an instructor with you in your car. They are especially good for the youngsters among us, just learning how to drive. They learn very quickly that they do have limits. I can't recommend these schools highly enough, for whatever car you have, from the 7-series to the mini. They are amazing and probably the most fun that's possible to have in a weekend.

Sam

p.s. After three snowstorms in the northern virginia area, I haven't needed to use the dtc/dsc button yet. As my dad advised me once...I try and drive as if there's an egg between my foot and each of the pedals and I try and not break that egg. In other words, avoid sudden control changes. So far, so good. If treated well, there wasn't anything my 540i wouldn't get through and I'm hoping for the same from my 545i!!!!

Iceman

Ok, That IS the same like beeing on track, since it's OFF public roads and you are free to do whatever you want to do, without interference of regular traffic! Sorry, but for me there is no difference, that's why I said You took it to the track.

Racing though is a different thing!


The E60 is not a race car, but it handles superb on track, with highspeeds and in extreme situations!
Drifting is no problem with the E60.
When you say it's not the car for that, you agree with my posts, that you should leave the DSC on! Think about it!! What you do when you turn it off is, you let it drift...

The car is teh same, but the driving conditions are not!


Kind off...


Well, everything is said in this thread...


I know, you will leave it off, but don't recommend doing so! It's there for a reason!


If you'd know him you'd know he is NO robot at all!


No, I can handle it.

urbo73

When I said track I think I was misunderstood. To me track IS racing - just because from past experience whenever I went to the track I would go to race. I understand what you and Iceman say however, and don't disagree. Just a different way of using the word "track". That's also why Iceman was saying that my lot was the same as a track and to me when I think track I think racing.

I also COMPLETELY agree that people should go learn the limits of their cars at a "track" or safe empty place. After all, we are BMW drivers, do we SHOULD care and know. I also agree, as I've said in one of my posts, that the best thing is KNOWING how to drive in bad conditions so you DON'T get into oversteers, etc. That's probably 90% of it. I'm an agressive driver, but not in bad weather.

urbo73

Look, if you can drive a RWD car well, you can pretty much drift any car the way you want to. Now that doesn't mean that the car is meant for that. What I was saying is that the E60 is a SEDAN first. If I want to drift, spin, do 180s, and race, then I'm sticking to the fact that the E60 IS the wrong car for that. YES I can do it, but it's silly, not as agile, cumbersome, etc. The car wasn't meant for that type of driving. That's M category. Or GT cars. Not a 5 series! Also what do you mean by "when you turn [DSC] off is, you let it drift"? Drifting is a CONTROLLED thing you do - at least when I talk about it. I'm not talking about sliding into a wall! Drifiting to me is coming out of a corner smoothly, etc. Drifting on purpose! As in when you race or do a lap around a race track to get the fastest times. DSC has nothing to do with that. Yeah if you turn off DSC and you can't control your car you will drift into a wall....

NO NO NO! I keep trying to get this answered (my main and sole question in the thread before we "drifted" out of control and started talking about driving habits):

What does "DTC only" buy me over "DSC off" in this case? I either want wheelspin or not! What is this quasi wheelspin with limited DSC (braking) on the rear wheels? Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it

Iceman

You see, we are basically saying the same, but our definition of some words is different.



Well, again... Our definitions are different... So drifting is the controlled thingie, and oversteering is the uncontrolled thingie, right?
Anyways, an E60 is not meant for racing, I agree. Drifting, the controlled way of drifting, sure is fun, but most ppl can't do it in the controlled way and just let the car oversteer uncontrolled.


Well, the DSC controls all four wheels. In snow and on ice it is possible, that your car is not moving at all, since the DSC recognizes the possible spin too early. DTC just monitors the rear wheels and allows "some" spin, before it kicks in, and the sensors of the front wheels can't cause any trouble.
You said you tested it, but to find out the difference you need to be on ice or snow.

price9195

I think I can add to the explanation of this without regurgitating others' words.

When you push DTC once you are changing traction control to dynamic traction control. In other words, the traction control goes from very restrictive to less intervention. You can use this where you might need to spin the wheels like if stuck in snow. Stability control is still in effect.

Push and hold and the whole traction control and stability control is off. There will be no brake intervention at the wheels and oversteer (sometimes massive oversteer) is allowed. Think powerslide.

Ilyam5

Hey Urbo 73 - next time you do doughnuts in Boston let me know I'll join you

DSC is dynamic control so it works best in motion. It's main difference from DTC is that DSC also retards engine power (DTC does not). DSC applies brakes to front and rear wheels individually.

DTC is tracktion control - it serves the role of the LSD (Limited slip differential ) but poorly. It applies brakes individually to rear wheels only. So if one weel is on ice one on dry pavement you should be able to move forward with DTC on, but you'll stand still with all systems off since Open Dif will just spin the wheel on ice.

So from a standstill it's best to just have DTC on to start moving and then turn DSC on when you are on the way (in snow that is)

There is one catch - if both rear wheels are on ice - DTC will try to clamp the brakes on both of them and therefore rob all the power from the engine - again you are not moving. In this casew you should turn all the system off and spin yourself out of snow. Be careful without LSD your rear will slide all over the place and even at 5mph you'll hit curbs and walls.

That's the main reason I bitch so much about lack of LSD in 545.
M3 or M5 (which have LSD) behave much better on ice and therefore don't even need DTC button. They only have DSC switchable.

here are some links to read:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

http://www.bmw.com/generic/com/en/fascinat...uide/index.html

urbo73

Ilyam5,

Finally I got it. For some reason I thought the 5 already HAD a LSD. I'm surprised to find out now that it doesn't! Wow! So that's why the lame DTC only button/mode is there. THAT is what I couldn't understand. I understand differentitals, but just assumed the 5 has an LSD not an open one - how lame is THAT? That's why I said "[it] Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it." Because I was thinking with an LSD what do I gain with DTC only vs DSC off. And the answer is NOTHING! But as it turns out I don't have an LSD So that was the confusion. Now it all makes sense. What a COMPLETE HACK! I guess more so to my point about the E60 not being meant to be a racing/track car. Seems to be true. What a mess! Yuck!

Ilyam5

Right on the money.. The real bummer is for X5 drivers. Their cars don't have LSDs. They are stuck left and right with snow tires. Up to 2004 they didn't even have the Torque distributor (LSD) from front to back. X drive fixed that one but still - no axel LSDs. And they can not turn the DSC off completely, so it's like a cow on ice. When all 4 wheels are in the snow - it's a no go for X5

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e53/6161736-2.html

Check out my previoius posts about my dramatic Winter driving experience with 545.. Loved that snow blizzard in Boston last week

http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=6768

http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=6765&hl=