Brake glazing + No visible outer rotor 'lip'. Mechanic says A-OK. Your thoughts?
04-05-2013, 05:57 PM
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Brake glazing + No visible outer rotor 'lip'. Mechanic says A-OK. Your thoughts?
First of all, I want to thank all the forum members and experts on this forum that have helped me (knowingly or unknowingly) countless times to avoid costly trips to the dealer by enabling me to fix quite a few things on my own. I always felt a bit selfish by not contributing, but I plan on doing so in the future. 
So anyhow, here's my current situation
About 2 months ago, I went to my local mechanic and got my front brakes done with new brake pads and slotted rotors (both aftermarket). My mechanic told me that my brake pads were "mixed ceramics" and said that they would dust less. Cool. It turned out to be true, but at a cost.. of braking performance. I've noticed that I've been braking harder to compensate for the lack of 'grip', and it didn't really bother me until recently when it started to screech (same sound you get when your pads are almost done) during mild to mid pressure braking. I thought this was unusual for fairly new brake pads, so I went back to the shop, but he told me that it was totally normal, and that I should water my brake pads to clear out the dust in the slots when I wash my car.
C'mon now. I'm not an expert, but I aiint stupid.
Today, I removed my wheels and looked a bit closer at my rotors. Upon inspection, I could see that my rotors are really shiny and a bit blueish in comparison to my back rotors. I think this is what you guys call glazing. But worse, I noticed that there was no lip around the outer edge of my rotor. There is a lip at the base (near the center of the rotor) where the brake hadn't touched. I think this is what is causing the noise.
So.
A) Does this mean that my brake PADS are touching and braking around the OUTER EDGE of my rotor? Is this dangerous? If yes, is there anything I can do besides buying new pads?
b) Should I be concerned about the glazing issue, or am I just being a pansy?
C) Slotted rotors = less stopping power, or simply crappy brake pads?
Thanks guys!
So anyhow, here's my current situation
About 2 months ago, I went to my local mechanic and got my front brakes done with new brake pads and slotted rotors (both aftermarket). My mechanic told me that my brake pads were "mixed ceramics" and said that they would dust less. Cool. It turned out to be true, but at a cost.. of braking performance. I've noticed that I've been braking harder to compensate for the lack of 'grip', and it didn't really bother me until recently when it started to screech (same sound you get when your pads are almost done) during mild to mid pressure braking. I thought this was unusual for fairly new brake pads, so I went back to the shop, but he told me that it was totally normal, and that I should water my brake pads to clear out the dust in the slots when I wash my car.
C'mon now. I'm not an expert, but I aiint stupid.
Today, I removed my wheels and looked a bit closer at my rotors. Upon inspection, I could see that my rotors are really shiny and a bit blueish in comparison to my back rotors. I think this is what you guys call glazing. But worse, I noticed that there was no lip around the outer edge of my rotor. There is a lip at the base (near the center of the rotor) where the brake hadn't touched. I think this is what is causing the noise.
So.
A) Does this mean that my brake PADS are touching and braking around the OUTER EDGE of my rotor? Is this dangerous? If yes, is there anything I can do besides buying new pads?
b) Should I be concerned about the glazing issue, or am I just being a pansy?
C) Slotted rotors = less stopping power, or simply crappy brake pads?
Thanks guys!
04-05-2013, 07:37 PM
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Sounds like you have some brake issues, but I wanted to touch on C. I found an interesting post on another car forum:
WHY Blank rotors are better than cross drilled and/or slotted
;I'm posting this here too as well as the Tech. Misc. Forum because this really affects people in here the most and I care about your safety because I have seen too many people get hurt by negatively affecting their car via modification and I feel braking is a VERY important system for this.>>
WHY Blank rotors are better than cross drilled and/or slotted - Honda-Tech
Ok I'm hearing a lot of conjecture, and people are STILL blowing money on shitty rotors, so I will tell you all why blank rotors are better.
The reason for the creation of cross drilled rotors initially was to remove the "gasses" from the brake pads. HOWEVER, most of your modern brake pads (Axxis metal, AEM semi-ceramic) do NOT produce gasses when heating. This was on bad brake pads used in the 1950s and 1960s. Back then, asbestos was also used, and we dont use that either.
The other reason is so called heat dissapation. I don't have my physics and thermo books with me, but the logic is that the holes in the rotor are suppose to allow the brake pad to cool. So...air gets into the rotor from the inside of the vents. If you have a back rotor which is solid, air gets into these holes how? If your stopped, you are leaving air inside these holes sandwiched between the pads, thus creating air with a rising temperature. Its increasing in pressure from the heat, which I guess you "could" call a gas that would affect braking. So the cross drilled rotors do not remove any gasses formed by brake pads (because there are none created anymore) but could possibly inhibit the creation of "hot spots".
Cross drilled rotors have LESS contact area because of the holes.
But if the rotor is cooler, its better, right? Well no, because these rotors are not cooler. THe heat is generated from the pad/rotor contact. What removes heat the most effectively? When stopped or moving, the pad transfers heat into the rotor because its made of cast iron. the rotor has a lot of surface area and even vanes in it. But the little holes allow air in this surface contact, and you can transfer more heat into a solid big *** chunk of cast iron more than you can into the air. Don't believe me? Touch some steam at 150 degrees, then touch a piece of hot metal which is at 150 degrees. Which burns your hand? the metal. So let the heat transfer into the metal, because since it has so much more surface area, dissapates better.
Safety!!
Cross drilled rotors can crack! I have seen them!!
Even racing teams will reccomend AGAINST cross drilled rotors:
http://www.livermoreperformanc....html
Companies that sell cross drilled rotors that are redrilled may not be structurally sound. I have actually seen pictures of rear Integra rotors that have had hairline cracks turn into the rotor actually breaking apart!
Do your homework. Even Porsche and Ferrari will admit that the cross drilled rotors they use are for looks. So if you are one of those kids who thinks the little holes look cool, get a name brand drilled rotor like Ferrari does. The REASON Ferrari's 'holed' rotors are alright to use is because they are CAST with the holes in them, so they are not actually drilled into cast iron rotors. Cheap drilled rotors are not safe, and even the good ones are not necessary. Why do Ferrari do it? People THINK they want it, and it sells. If you don't believe me, go into the business world. You will learn that pretty soon, you can sell utter **** if people THINK its better.
Information I gathered from Account Suspended
says:
"KVR Crossdrilled Rotors
Why should you upgrade to cross drilled rotors?
Simply stated, the function of any vehicles brake system is to stop the vehicle. This is accomplished by absorbing the kinetic energy stored in the moving vehicle, and converting it into heat. The friction caused by the brake pad rubbing on the rotor is the source of this heat. The more quickly and efficiently that heat can be absorbed and dissipated, the more quickly and efficiently the car will stop.
There are several contributing factors to this heat reduction. One of the most common sources of heat is from the gases produced by the bonding agents of the brake pad burning off. Under severe braking, this can actually produce a boundary layer of gas that pushes the pad away from the rotor, which can lead to excessive brake fade. The cross-drilled holes or slots in a rotor provide an escape path for these gasses (de-gassing or out-gassing are common terms), and allow the pad to stay in contact with the rotor. As well as de-gassing, cross drilling or slotting will provide better wet weather braking as water is swept through the holes, or down the slots.
A vented rotor can be viewed as an air fan. When in motion, the vents draw air from the center of the rotor outward. This air flow, over an increased internal surface area, effectively dissipates rotor heat. Cross drilling adds to this air flow, as well as providing additional rotor surface cooling. "
This company is just telling you that the rotors may be cooler, however they fail to mention that the holes really do create a more than substantial decrease in surface area, thus less braking, thus less heat created, thus the less heat CREATED will leave the rotors cooler, the holes barely do anything! Its the less braking lowering the temperature!
Slotted rotors-
Find me a company that uses stock slotted rotors. They remove brake dust, but if you study braking systems, you find that with modern cars, flat blank rotors and semi-ceramic pads, the brake dust causing the rotor to slip on it is almost non-existent. But the brake dust doesnt need all those lines. Notice how most front brake pads (and most back) have that line down the middle to give essentially two bite points. If OEM or racing companies found it to be a benefit, they would do it.
PROOF OF IT ALL:
Find me an F1 car as of now that uses cross drilled or slotted rotors.
They all use full ceramic rotors and ceramic pads. Are they drilled or slotted? No.
If they helped the fastest cars in the world, wouldn't they use them? Its basic calculations that show the lack in surface area does not make up for the possible loss in temperarure. They use brake cooling air ducts insted.
BIG BRAKE KITS:
Some have asked if the big brake kits are worth it. This is sort of a relative question, but the simple answer is no. Regarding the big ones with drilled rotors, if you know that they are cast that way, at least they wont crack. I will still advice against them.
In terms of a big brake kit, I have seen some for Civic DX models. Civics have the small pad, small caliper, and a 9.5" rotor. The big rotors are 12" in diameter, ok so the overall diameter is close to that of an Acura RL (1999). But the sweeping area (the area that the pad can grab) is still the same if they use the same caliper and same pad. If you have the same pad and caliper, you are using the same rotor surface, just farther out, so it will increase braking from stock. However, if you were to change knuckles, etc, and get Acura RL caliper (larger piston than your civic DX piston), RL pads (much bigger and taller), and RL rotors 11.8" but much more surface area is touched, then you have a better brake setup because you have OEM parts, and a better grip on more area of the rotor. The downfall is added weight (since big brake kits are usually 2 piece and lighter) but the benefit is that you have so much more stopping. Ok, so the big brake kit will have less unsprung and rotational mass (so a little better accelleration but less braking), but they tend to run over a grand, and you can use OEM parts to build a better setup for half that.
IN CONCLUSION:
Don't buy slotted or cross drilled rotors, blank are better, and stop better. Physics people, get me my formulas and help me out here.
If you must get rotors with designs on them, get the slotted ones by a good company, and DON'T get blank rotors redrilled with little holes all over them. IF you absolutly must have the rotors with holes cause you like em, get them from a company that casts the rotors like that. I have seen rotors break and this is for your safety!
REMEMBER......
Your car will only stop as fast as your tires will allow. All the braking in the world wont work if your tires are bald and on ice!!
Modified by Redline96LX at 6:42 PM 11/17/2005
WHY Blank rotors are better than cross drilled and/or slotted
;I'm posting this here too as well as the Tech. Misc. Forum because this really affects people in here the most and I care about your safety because I have seen too many people get hurt by negatively affecting their car via modification and I feel braking is a VERY important system for this.>>
WHY Blank rotors are better than cross drilled and/or slotted - Honda-Tech
Ok I'm hearing a lot of conjecture, and people are STILL blowing money on shitty rotors, so I will tell you all why blank rotors are better.
The reason for the creation of cross drilled rotors initially was to remove the "gasses" from the brake pads. HOWEVER, most of your modern brake pads (Axxis metal, AEM semi-ceramic) do NOT produce gasses when heating. This was on bad brake pads used in the 1950s and 1960s. Back then, asbestos was also used, and we dont use that either.
The other reason is so called heat dissapation. I don't have my physics and thermo books with me, but the logic is that the holes in the rotor are suppose to allow the brake pad to cool. So...air gets into the rotor from the inside of the vents. If you have a back rotor which is solid, air gets into these holes how? If your stopped, you are leaving air inside these holes sandwiched between the pads, thus creating air with a rising temperature. Its increasing in pressure from the heat, which I guess you "could" call a gas that would affect braking. So the cross drilled rotors do not remove any gasses formed by brake pads (because there are none created anymore) but could possibly inhibit the creation of "hot spots".
Cross drilled rotors have LESS contact area because of the holes.
But if the rotor is cooler, its better, right? Well no, because these rotors are not cooler. THe heat is generated from the pad/rotor contact. What removes heat the most effectively? When stopped or moving, the pad transfers heat into the rotor because its made of cast iron. the rotor has a lot of surface area and even vanes in it. But the little holes allow air in this surface contact, and you can transfer more heat into a solid big *** chunk of cast iron more than you can into the air. Don't believe me? Touch some steam at 150 degrees, then touch a piece of hot metal which is at 150 degrees. Which burns your hand? the metal. So let the heat transfer into the metal, because since it has so much more surface area, dissapates better.
Safety!!
Cross drilled rotors can crack! I have seen them!!
Even racing teams will reccomend AGAINST cross drilled rotors:
http://www.livermoreperformanc....html
Companies that sell cross drilled rotors that are redrilled may not be structurally sound. I have actually seen pictures of rear Integra rotors that have had hairline cracks turn into the rotor actually breaking apart!
Do your homework. Even Porsche and Ferrari will admit that the cross drilled rotors they use are for looks. So if you are one of those kids who thinks the little holes look cool, get a name brand drilled rotor like Ferrari does. The REASON Ferrari's 'holed' rotors are alright to use is because they are CAST with the holes in them, so they are not actually drilled into cast iron rotors. Cheap drilled rotors are not safe, and even the good ones are not necessary. Why do Ferrari do it? People THINK they want it, and it sells. If you don't believe me, go into the business world. You will learn that pretty soon, you can sell utter **** if people THINK its better.
Information I gathered from Account Suspended
says:
"KVR Crossdrilled Rotors
Why should you upgrade to cross drilled rotors?
Simply stated, the function of any vehicles brake system is to stop the vehicle. This is accomplished by absorbing the kinetic energy stored in the moving vehicle, and converting it into heat. The friction caused by the brake pad rubbing on the rotor is the source of this heat. The more quickly and efficiently that heat can be absorbed and dissipated, the more quickly and efficiently the car will stop.
There are several contributing factors to this heat reduction. One of the most common sources of heat is from the gases produced by the bonding agents of the brake pad burning off. Under severe braking, this can actually produce a boundary layer of gas that pushes the pad away from the rotor, which can lead to excessive brake fade. The cross-drilled holes or slots in a rotor provide an escape path for these gasses (de-gassing or out-gassing are common terms), and allow the pad to stay in contact with the rotor. As well as de-gassing, cross drilling or slotting will provide better wet weather braking as water is swept through the holes, or down the slots.
A vented rotor can be viewed as an air fan. When in motion, the vents draw air from the center of the rotor outward. This air flow, over an increased internal surface area, effectively dissipates rotor heat. Cross drilling adds to this air flow, as well as providing additional rotor surface cooling. "
This company is just telling you that the rotors may be cooler, however they fail to mention that the holes really do create a more than substantial decrease in surface area, thus less braking, thus less heat created, thus the less heat CREATED will leave the rotors cooler, the holes barely do anything! Its the less braking lowering the temperature!
Slotted rotors-
Find me a company that uses stock slotted rotors. They remove brake dust, but if you study braking systems, you find that with modern cars, flat blank rotors and semi-ceramic pads, the brake dust causing the rotor to slip on it is almost non-existent. But the brake dust doesnt need all those lines. Notice how most front brake pads (and most back) have that line down the middle to give essentially two bite points. If OEM or racing companies found it to be a benefit, they would do it.
PROOF OF IT ALL:
Find me an F1 car as of now that uses cross drilled or slotted rotors.
They all use full ceramic rotors and ceramic pads. Are they drilled or slotted? No.
If they helped the fastest cars in the world, wouldn't they use them? Its basic calculations that show the lack in surface area does not make up for the possible loss in temperarure. They use brake cooling air ducts insted.
BIG BRAKE KITS:
Some have asked if the big brake kits are worth it. This is sort of a relative question, but the simple answer is no. Regarding the big ones with drilled rotors, if you know that they are cast that way, at least they wont crack. I will still advice against them.
In terms of a big brake kit, I have seen some for Civic DX models. Civics have the small pad, small caliper, and a 9.5" rotor. The big rotors are 12" in diameter, ok so the overall diameter is close to that of an Acura RL (1999). But the sweeping area (the area that the pad can grab) is still the same if they use the same caliper and same pad. If you have the same pad and caliper, you are using the same rotor surface, just farther out, so it will increase braking from stock. However, if you were to change knuckles, etc, and get Acura RL caliper (larger piston than your civic DX piston), RL pads (much bigger and taller), and RL rotors 11.8" but much more surface area is touched, then you have a better brake setup because you have OEM parts, and a better grip on more area of the rotor. The downfall is added weight (since big brake kits are usually 2 piece and lighter) but the benefit is that you have so much more stopping. Ok, so the big brake kit will have less unsprung and rotational mass (so a little better accelleration but less braking), but they tend to run over a grand, and you can use OEM parts to build a better setup for half that.
IN CONCLUSION:
Don't buy slotted or cross drilled rotors, blank are better, and stop better. Physics people, get me my formulas and help me out here.
If you must get rotors with designs on them, get the slotted ones by a good company, and DON'T get blank rotors redrilled with little holes all over them. IF you absolutly must have the rotors with holes cause you like em, get them from a company that casts the rotors like that. I have seen rotors break and this is for your safety!
REMEMBER......
Your car will only stop as fast as your tires will allow. All the braking in the world wont work if your tires are bald and on ice!!
Modified by Redline96LX at 6:42 PM 11/17/2005
04-05-2013, 09:03 PM
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not seeing a lip on the outer edge is not an issue.
the ceramic pads are a harder material and wont bite as well, but dust less and last longer.
to prevent squeeks, lube all contact points, and apply a noise isolator to back side of pads, if they dont have any.
you could also take some rough sandpaper and scuff the discs up again, to make em rough, to bed in the pads again.
the ceramic pads are a harder material and wont bite as well, but dust less and last longer.
to prevent squeeks, lube all contact points, and apply a noise isolator to back side of pads, if they dont have any.
you could also take some rough sandpaper and scuff the discs up again, to make em rough, to bed in the pads again.
04-06-2013, 04:18 AM
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Everything in life is a compromise. Want AMAZING braking power? get ready to use soft compound pads that dust like mad. Want to stop cleaning brake dust? use a hard compound pad but lose braking performance. you can't have it all. pick one.
ive used slotted rotors on my E30 for 15 years. no problems ever. 'blueing' of rotors usually means they are getting too hot. what brand pad are you using?
ive used slotted rotors on my E30 for 15 years. no problems ever. 'blueing' of rotors usually means they are getting too hot. what brand pad are you using?
04-06-2013, 04:41 AM
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[QUOTE=KyleB;1500208]Everything in life is a compromise. Want AMAZING braking power? get ready to use soft compound pads that dust like mad. Want to stop cleaning brake dust? use a hard compound pad but lose braking performance. you can't have it all. pick one.
Hawk HPS....excellent compromise....very good stopping with extremely little dust.
If you just went to a local shop, they probably used a standard autozone-ish brand of ceramic pads...lousy stopping power and feel.
Hawk HPS....excellent compromise....very good stopping with extremely little dust.
If you just went to a local shop, they probably used a standard autozone-ish brand of ceramic pads...lousy stopping power and feel.
04-06-2013, 05:03 AM
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^^i assume thats what you're using now? Ive always had good luck with Pagids on my E30. havent had to change brakes on the E60, but they're coming due soon.
04-06-2013, 05:30 AM
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I need to be way C O O L !!
I'm always amazed (chuckling inside) that DIY'ers are sucked in by the "look like a race car" marketing hype and then complain their brakes are noisy when they commute to work.Mikey B-mer provided several interesting points that are worth paying attention to.
I'd add an additional one:
Now I have to go move some topsoil - can someone lend me an M5 with slotted and cross-drilled brake discs - I want to look cool at the garden supply joint
.
I'd add an additional one:
Manufacturer installed (OEM) brake components have undergone lots and lots of testing - far more than even the BEST of aftermarket manufacturers could afford. They are intended to provide safe performance across a wide range of "normal" use by an equally wide range of "driver types". After-all, BMW knows that means from easy to aggressive driving - aren't most BMWs "sports sedans" ??
That's not saying that aftermarket brake components are "bad" - many are created to suit a more narrow use (or 'appearance'). For example, hyper-performance pads intended to be effective HOT probably don't get hot on the commute to work! But they may be noisy and not brake as well when cold and wet (ask me how I know!), Now I have to go move some topsoil - can someone lend me an M5 with slotted and cross-drilled brake discs - I want to look cool at the garden supply joint
.
Last edited by luigi524td; 04-06-2013 at 05:32 AM.
04-06-2013, 07:36 AM
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+1 luigi ! I remember many years ago buying new rotors and dustless pads for my M3. Now, i honestly don't remember the manufacturer of the pads but the first time I drove in the rain and hit the brakes it felt someone had greased up my brakes. The dustless pads I currently have my e60 seem ok. However, my opinion of slotted and drilled rotors are just a waste of money. From my understanding you cannot turn these so they are a one time use I assume. The last set of rotors I purchased were from autozone and I will never do this again. After a few month the hub is very rusted and looks like crap. I could paint them but I shouldn't have too. Next time it will be oem rotors and pads for me! Interestingly onion F10 the factory pads produce no dust. So it looks like BMW changed something here. Hopefully these type are available for the e60 too.
04-06-2013, 11:04 AM
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Glaze on rotors indicate improper bedding after pad installation. Did you follow the pad manufacturer bedding procedure? In addition, blue glaze indicate rotor overheating. Ceramic pads are less sticky than coventional pads and they need to grab longer and harder (more heat).
The brake shop should be able to help de-glaze the rotors and pads. Before going back to them, you could try the following technique. On a clear highway, with no other vehicles around or behind you: drive at highway speed (eg 65 mph), slow down moderately to 20 mph less (eg 45 mph), accelerate to highway speed again. Repeat twice. Drive moderately for the next 10 minutes for brake cool-off, and avoid the use of the brake system if possible. Do you feel any improvement in braking? If yes, locate the pad manufacturer bedding procedure and following the bedding instruction. If no, then your rotors and pads need to be de-glazed, or get a new set.
The brake shop should be able to help de-glaze the rotors and pads. Before going back to them, you could try the following technique. On a clear highway, with no other vehicles around or behind you: drive at highway speed (eg 65 mph), slow down moderately to 20 mph less (eg 45 mph), accelerate to highway speed again. Repeat twice. Drive moderately for the next 10 minutes for brake cool-off, and avoid the use of the brake system if possible. Do you feel any improvement in braking? If yes, locate the pad manufacturer bedding procedure and following the bedding instruction. If no, then your rotors and pads need to be de-glazed, or get a new set.
04-06-2013, 12:28 PM
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Glaze on rotors indicate improper bedding after pad installation. Did you follow the pad manufacturer bedding procedure? In addition, blue glaze indicate rotor overheating. Ceramic pads are less sticky than coventional pads and they need to grab longer and harder (more heat).
To all who commented in this thread on drilled and slotted rotors - info greatly appreciated, just placing an on-line order for front rotors myself
.
Last edited by Errowen; 04-06-2013 at 05:15 PM.