ATTN: 2004 Left over model owners.
01-11-2006, 11:57 AM
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Guys, easy, you're worying this poor fellow to death.
Disclaimer: laws vary in every state--but--
First you've got to get straight on some terms.
First, "roll back" is a bad word. Rolling back has nothing to do with a model year, or a car "rolling back" to the dealer. It's a term for purposely reducing the miles on an odometer. It's a Federal crime. Though you might not like your dealer, that would have to be one dumb franchise dealer to take that chance. BMW NA would never hear of it, not for long anyway.
Second, "new" and "used" are not necessarily "new" or "used". The definition in the industry of new usually means that the CO (Certiificate of Origin) or MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) have not been completed. In my state for example, I can register a car with miles that has never had a title perfected, and the title will still show "new". By the same token, you can drive a car off a dealer's lot with miles, and the paperwork can still say "new"--IF a title has never been perfected. BTW, I don't know about the laws in your state, but in most states, the only people who can "pass" a CO (or MSO) are authorized dealers. Most likely you never saw yours. If you financed, it's also almost a certainty that you didn't.
Third, just because someone took a demo ride (or rides) does not make a car a "demonsrator". The difference is (and this sounds like what happened here) that if it is placed in "demonstrator service", the meter has begun to run on the warranty and service issues. This is why BMW usually gives the slight time extension on a car placed "in demonstrator servoce".
"In service date" is the day in which the dealer or BMW NA did just that. It has nothing to do with being serviced.
Most likely, you have a car that was placed in demo service, they used the John doe name, and the meter has run on some of your 4 year 50k mile warranty and service agreement. That is fair, because it is assumed you bargained for the discount that came with it still being on the lot at this late date. I agree, your dealer should have given a bit more explanation, bu if these are indeed the facts--and I dont' know that they are--then you're doing fine. Yes, call NA and give them your VIN. Tell them you just want to know when your service and warranty periods are up. That's all that really matters, as long as they haven't purposely misled you.
Hope this helps. Rant over. Old guy out.
Disclaimer: laws vary in every state--but--
First you've got to get straight on some terms.
First, "roll back" is a bad word. Rolling back has nothing to do with a model year, or a car "rolling back" to the dealer. It's a term for purposely reducing the miles on an odometer. It's a Federal crime. Though you might not like your dealer, that would have to be one dumb franchise dealer to take that chance. BMW NA would never hear of it, not for long anyway.
Second, "new" and "used" are not necessarily "new" or "used". The definition in the industry of new usually means that the CO (Certiificate of Origin) or MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) have not been completed. In my state for example, I can register a car with miles that has never had a title perfected, and the title will still show "new". By the same token, you can drive a car off a dealer's lot with miles, and the paperwork can still say "new"--IF a title has never been perfected. BTW, I don't know about the laws in your state, but in most states, the only people who can "pass" a CO (or MSO) are authorized dealers. Most likely you never saw yours. If you financed, it's also almost a certainty that you didn't.
Third, just because someone took a demo ride (or rides) does not make a car a "demonsrator". The difference is (and this sounds like what happened here) that if it is placed in "demonstrator service", the meter has begun to run on the warranty and service issues. This is why BMW usually gives the slight time extension on a car placed "in demonstrator servoce".
"In service date" is the day in which the dealer or BMW NA did just that. It has nothing to do with being serviced.
Most likely, you have a car that was placed in demo service, they used the John doe name, and the meter has run on some of your 4 year 50k mile warranty and service agreement. That is fair, because it is assumed you bargained for the discount that came with it still being on the lot at this late date. I agree, your dealer should have given a bit more explanation, bu if these are indeed the facts--and I dont' know that they are--then you're doing fine. Yes, call NA and give them your VIN. Tell them you just want to know when your service and warranty periods are up. That's all that really matters, as long as they haven't purposely misled you.
Hope this helps. Rant over. Old guy out.
01-12-2006, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by allenman' post='222883' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:57 PM
Guys, easy, you're worying this poor fellow to death.
Disclaimer: laws vary in every state--but--
First you've got to get straight on some terms.
First, "roll back" is a bad word. Rolling back has nothing to do with a model year, or a car "rolling back" to the dealer. It's a term for purposely reducing the miles on an odometer. It's a Federal crime. Though you might not like your dealer, that would have to be one dumb franchise dealer to take that chance. BMW NA would never hear of it, not for long anyway.
Second, "new" and "used" are not necessarily "new" or "used". The definition in the industry of new usually means that the CO (Certiificate of Origin) or MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) have not been completed. In my state for example, I can register a car with miles that has never had a title perfected, and the title will still show "new". By the same token, you can drive a car off a dealer's lot with miles, and the paperwork can still say "new"--IF a title has never been perfected. BTW, I don't know about the laws in your state, but in most states, the only people who can "pass" a CO (or MSO) are authorized dealers. Most likely you never saw yours. If you financed, it's also almost a certainty that you didn't.
Third, just because someone took a demo ride (or rides) does not make a car a "demonsrator". The difference is (and this sounds like what happened here) that if it is placed in "demonstrator service", the meter has begun to run on the warranty and service issues. This is why BMW usually gives the slight time extension on a car placed "in demonstrator servoce".
"In service date" is the day in which the dealer or BMW NA did just that. It has nothing to do with being serviced.
Most likely, you have a car that was placed in demo service, they used the John doe name, and the meter has run on some of your 4 year 50k mile warranty and service agreement. That is fair, because it is assumed you bargained for the discount that came with it still being on the lot at this late date. I agree, your dealer should have given a bit more explanation, bu if these are indeed the facts--and I dont' know that they are--then you're doing fine. Yes, call NA and give them your VIN. Tell them you just want to know when your service and warranty periods are up. That's all that really matters, as long as they haven't purposely misled you.
Hope this helps. Rant over. Old guy out.
Disclaimer: laws vary in every state--but--
First you've got to get straight on some terms.
First, "roll back" is a bad word. Rolling back has nothing to do with a model year, or a car "rolling back" to the dealer. It's a term for purposely reducing the miles on an odometer. It's a Federal crime. Though you might not like your dealer, that would have to be one dumb franchise dealer to take that chance. BMW NA would never hear of it, not for long anyway.
Second, "new" and "used" are not necessarily "new" or "used". The definition in the industry of new usually means that the CO (Certiificate of Origin) or MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) have not been completed. In my state for example, I can register a car with miles that has never had a title perfected, and the title will still show "new". By the same token, you can drive a car off a dealer's lot with miles, and the paperwork can still say "new"--IF a title has never been perfected. BTW, I don't know about the laws in your state, but in most states, the only people who can "pass" a CO (or MSO) are authorized dealers. Most likely you never saw yours. If you financed, it's also almost a certainty that you didn't.
Third, just because someone took a demo ride (or rides) does not make a car a "demonsrator". The difference is (and this sounds like what happened here) that if it is placed in "demonstrator service", the meter has begun to run on the warranty and service issues. This is why BMW usually gives the slight time extension on a car placed "in demonstrator servoce".
"In service date" is the day in which the dealer or BMW NA did just that. It has nothing to do with being serviced.
Most likely, you have a car that was placed in demo service, they used the John doe name, and the meter has run on some of your 4 year 50k mile warranty and service agreement. That is fair, because it is assumed you bargained for the discount that came with it still being on the lot at this late date. I agree, your dealer should have given a bit more explanation, bu if these are indeed the facts--and I dont' know that they are--then you're doing fine. Yes, call NA and give them your VIN. Tell them you just want to know when your service and warranty periods are up. That's all that really matters, as long as they haven't purposely misled you.
Hope this helps. Rant over. Old guy out.
First of all, thanks for clarifying that old "rollback" term; it indeed means rolling back an odometer--tough to do electronically...tee hee.
The rest of your statements are valid too, except that you didn't include the BMWNA "DEMO" program where an extra 5000 and 3 mos of warranty are added to such cars. They are generally registered as "New" in most states that I know.
This is the fact that conflicts with "John Doe." There is no way a factory-supported demo would be on BMW's computer system with a name hooked to it.
Taking these basic BMW-specific facts together, seems to indicate that this car may have been "unsold" (my term, not legal art) for some reason. It probably was recorded on the MSO, which, this owner may not have seen. Further, it may or may not be reflected on the title.
Thus, he has only to look at his title and his sales contract. If both show NEW, then BMWNA or the dealer have some BMW-system explaning to do. And to accomplish this, I would recommend a LETTER, not a phone call to BMW. This explanation should be gotten in writing so that future warranty issues can be referenced if necessary.
Just some thoughts from an auto dealer son/grandson and former Deputy Commissioner of NYSDMV. BUt by no means an expert on other-state laws.
Good luck,
Ray Hull
01-12-2006, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by allenman' post='222883' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:57 PM
Guys, easy, you're worying this poor fellow to death.
Disclaimer: laws vary in every state--but--
First you've got to get straight on some terms.
First, "roll back" is a bad word. Rolling back has nothing to do with a model year, or a car "rolling back" to the dealer. It's a term for purposely reducing the miles on an odometer. It's a Federal crime. Though you might not like your dealer, that would have to be one dumb franchise dealer to take that chance. BMW NA would never hear of it, not for long anyway.
Second, "new" and "used" are not necessarily "new" or "used". The definition in the industry of new usually means that the CO (Certiificate of Origin) or MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) have not been completed. In my state for example, I can register a car with miles that has never had a title perfected, and the title will still show "new". By the same token, you can drive a car off a dealer's lot with miles, and the paperwork can still say "new"--IF a title has never been perfected. BTW, I don't know about the laws in your state, but in most states, the only people who can "pass" a CO (or MSO) are authorized dealers. Most likely you never saw yours. If you financed, it's also almost a certainty that you didn't.
Third, just because someone took a demo ride (or rides) does not make a car a "demonsrator". The difference is (and this sounds like what happened here) that if it is placed in "demonstrator service", the meter has begun to run on the warranty and service issues. This is why BMW usually gives the slight time extension on a car placed "in demonstrator servoce".
"In service date" is the day in which the dealer or BMW NA did just that. It has nothing to do with being serviced.
Most likely, you have a car that was placed in demo service, they used the John doe name, and the meter has run on some of your 4 year 50k mile warranty and service agreement. That is fair, because it is assumed you bargained for the discount that came with it still being on the lot at this late date. I agree, your dealer should have given a bit more explanation, bu if these are indeed the facts--and I dont' know that they are--then you're doing fine. Yes, call NA and give them your VIN. Tell them you just want to know when your service and warranty periods are up. That's all that really matters, as long as they haven't purposely misled you.
Hope this helps. Rant over. Old guy out.
Disclaimer: laws vary in every state--but--
First you've got to get straight on some terms.
First, "roll back" is a bad word. Rolling back has nothing to do with a model year, or a car "rolling back" to the dealer. It's a term for purposely reducing the miles on an odometer. It's a Federal crime. Though you might not like your dealer, that would have to be one dumb franchise dealer to take that chance. BMW NA would never hear of it, not for long anyway.
Second, "new" and "used" are not necessarily "new" or "used". The definition in the industry of new usually means that the CO (Certiificate of Origin) or MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) have not been completed. In my state for example, I can register a car with miles that has never had a title perfected, and the title will still show "new". By the same token, you can drive a car off a dealer's lot with miles, and the paperwork can still say "new"--IF a title has never been perfected. BTW, I don't know about the laws in your state, but in most states, the only people who can "pass" a CO (or MSO) are authorized dealers. Most likely you never saw yours. If you financed, it's also almost a certainty that you didn't.
Third, just because someone took a demo ride (or rides) does not make a car a "demonsrator". The difference is (and this sounds like what happened here) that if it is placed in "demonstrator service", the meter has begun to run on the warranty and service issues. This is why BMW usually gives the slight time extension on a car placed "in demonstrator servoce".
"In service date" is the day in which the dealer or BMW NA did just that. It has nothing to do with being serviced.
Most likely, you have a car that was placed in demo service, they used the John doe name, and the meter has run on some of your 4 year 50k mile warranty and service agreement. That is fair, because it is assumed you bargained for the discount that came with it still being on the lot at this late date. I agree, your dealer should have given a bit more explanation, bu if these are indeed the facts--and I dont' know that they are--then you're doing fine. Yes, call NA and give them your VIN. Tell them you just want to know when your service and warranty periods are up. That's all that really matters, as long as they haven't purposely misled you.
Hope this helps. Rant over. Old guy out.
. So does that entitle me to see or have it? So if my car was placed in demo service shoudnt it be labled as demo? They never offered any type of extension for warranty, only the extended warranty. I did try and bargain for my car. I just hope $5k justifies a year lost on my warranty.I checked out my title, and the section where its supposed to say new, salvage, etc. it was blank. They should do better explanation. Better yet at least mention it. Anyways I'll try and check it out and let yall know wassup. thanks Old man,&others.
01-12-2006, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by allenman' post='222883' date='Jan 11 2006, 03:57 PM
Guys, easy, you're worying this poor fellow to death.
Disclaimer: laws vary in every state--but--
First you've got to get straight on some terms.
First, "roll back" is a bad word. Rolling back has nothing to do with a model year, or a car "rolling back" to the dealer. It's a term for purposely reducing the miles on an odometer. It's a Federal crime. Though you might not like your dealer, that would have to be one dumb franchise dealer to take that chance. BMW NA would never hear of it, not for long anyway.
Second, "new" and "used" are not necessarily "new" or "used". The definition in the industry of new usually means that the CO (Certiificate of Origin) or MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) have not been completed. In my state for example, I can register a car with miles that has never had a title perfected, and the title will still show "new". By the same token, you can drive a car off a dealer's lot with miles, and the paperwork can still say "new"--IF a title has never been perfected. BTW, I don't know about the laws in your state, but in most states, the only people who can "pass" a CO (or MSO) are authorized dealers. Most likely you never saw yours. If you financed, it's also almost a certainty that you didn't.
Third, just because someone took a demo ride (or rides) does not make a car a "demonsrator". The difference is (and this sounds like what happened here) that if it is placed in "demonstrator service", the meter has begun to run on the warranty and service issues. This is why BMW usually gives the slight time extension on a car placed "in demonstrator servoce".
"In service date" is the day in which the dealer or BMW NA did just that. It has nothing to do with being serviced.
Most likely, you have a car that was placed in demo service, they used the John doe name, and the meter has run on some of your 4 year 50k mile warranty and service agreement. That is fair, because it is assumed you bargained for the discount that came with it still being on the lot at this late date. I agree, your dealer should have given a bit more explanation, bu if these are indeed the facts--and I dont' know that they are--then you're doing fine. Yes, call NA and give them your VIN. Tell them you just want to know when your service and warranty periods are up. That's all that really matters, as long as they haven't purposely misled you.
Hope this helps. Rant over. Old guy out.
Disclaimer: laws vary in every state--but--
First you've got to get straight on some terms.
First, "roll back" is a bad word. Rolling back has nothing to do with a model year, or a car "rolling back" to the dealer. It's a term for purposely reducing the miles on an odometer. It's a Federal crime. Though you might not like your dealer, that would have to be one dumb franchise dealer to take that chance. BMW NA would never hear of it, not for long anyway.
Second, "new" and "used" are not necessarily "new" or "used". The definition in the industry of new usually means that the CO (Certiificate of Origin) or MSO (manufacturer's statement of origin) have not been completed. In my state for example, I can register a car with miles that has never had a title perfected, and the title will still show "new". By the same token, you can drive a car off a dealer's lot with miles, and the paperwork can still say "new"--IF a title has never been perfected. BTW, I don't know about the laws in your state, but in most states, the only people who can "pass" a CO (or MSO) are authorized dealers. Most likely you never saw yours. If you financed, it's also almost a certainty that you didn't.
Third, just because someone took a demo ride (or rides) does not make a car a "demonsrator". The difference is (and this sounds like what happened here) that if it is placed in "demonstrator service", the meter has begun to run on the warranty and service issues. This is why BMW usually gives the slight time extension on a car placed "in demonstrator servoce".
"In service date" is the day in which the dealer or BMW NA did just that. It has nothing to do with being serviced.
Most likely, you have a car that was placed in demo service, they used the John doe name, and the meter has run on some of your 4 year 50k mile warranty and service agreement. That is fair, because it is assumed you bargained for the discount that came with it still being on the lot at this late date. I agree, your dealer should have given a bit more explanation, bu if these are indeed the facts--and I dont' know that they are--then you're doing fine. Yes, call NA and give them your VIN. Tell them you just want to know when your service and warranty periods are up. That's all that really matters, as long as they haven't purposely misled you.
Hope this helps. Rant over. Old guy out.
. So does that entitle me to see or have it? So if my car was placed in demo service shoudnt it be labled as demo? They never offered any type of extension for warranty, only the extended warranty. I did try and bargain for my car. I just hope $5k justifies a year lost on my warranty.I checked out my title, and the section where its supposed to say new, salvage, etc. it was blank. They should do better explanation. Better yet at least mention it. Anyways I'll try and check it out and let yall know wassup. thanks Old man,&others.
01-12-2006, 06:53 AM
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Allenman is correct I did make a mistake using the term "Roll Back". I looked over my notes on my transaction and the proper term for what happened to me is "Un-wind". The dealer had to un-wind the prior sale, however the car could still not be re-sold as new.
01-12-2006, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by sdente' post='223280' date='Jan 12 2006, 10:53 AM
Allenman is correct I did make a mistake using the term "Roll Back". I looked over my notes on my transaction and the proper term for what happened to me is "Un-wind". The dealer had to un-wind the prior sale, however the car could still not be re-sold as new.
01-12-2006, 07:48 AM
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The iDrive clock starts when the car is deliverded from factory!
That means that certain fuels have to changed after a fixed period,
like cooler system and brake fuels.
The new car warranty should start from the point the car is delivered,
even if it is a half year or more since production date!
That means that certain fuels have to changed after a fixed period,
like cooler system and brake fuels.
The new car warranty should start from the point the car is delivered,
even if it is a half year or more since production date!
01-12-2006, 08:03 AM
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First "Bumwa" was a new 1971 2002. High performance 5s since 1987. Beamer motorcycles too, currently on an 07 BMW K1200 GT; also a Moto Guzzi 1000 SP III.
[/quote]
I got no beef with my dealer(CA). I'm just frustrated because they dont have the answers regarding my questions and only they would know. The reason i brought this up was cuz I wanted to know what every other 2004 leftover owners got on their warranty. Like I said earlier, the brochure and commericcial i read says 4 yr warranty on new BMW's. I guess mines new, shouldnt I get 4yrs? I never heard of MSO and CO till now. Sales never showed/mention anything like that. I didnt have it financed. Paid it the same day I walked in . So does that entitle me to see or have it? So if my car was placed in demo service shoudnt it be labled as demo? They never offered any type of extension for warranty, only the extended warranty. I did try and bargain for my car. I just hope $5k justifies a year lost on my warranty.
I checked out my title, and the section where its supposed to say new, salvage, etc. it was blank. They should do better explanation. Better yet at least mention it. Anyways I'll try and check it out and let yall know wassup. thanks Old man,&others.
[/quote]
Your INSERVICE date determines how much of the 4 year warranty you have. You still get 50k miles; whichever comes first. As I suggested earlier, either look at one of your repair orders (it's probably on there with an 04 or 05 date) or contact BMWNA with your VIN (preferrably in writing).
That you have a blank spot on your title is odd; I'd ask DMV about that. Cal may not differentiate "Demo" some states do, others don't. You didn't see the MSO because the dealer took care of the DMV registration transaction. But whatever was on the MSO should also be on the title (and sales contract).
Since you mentioned a $5K negotiated discount, I must ask if you paid any gas guzzler tax? Also, was the $5K off of the 04 sticker price or off of their asking price?
In sum, I'd say you should be more suspicious and ask more direct questions of your dealer; you seem too willing to absolve him from having not disclosed some VERY crucial info. Most crucial of which is your missing person: John Doe.
You could forward this thread to your sales associate and your attorney...
Good luck,
Ray Hull
I got no beef with my dealer(CA). I'm just frustrated because they dont have the answers regarding my questions and only they would know. The reason i brought this up was cuz I wanted to know what every other 2004 leftover owners got on their warranty. Like I said earlier, the brochure and commericcial i read says 4 yr warranty on new BMW's. I guess mines new, shouldnt I get 4yrs? I never heard of MSO and CO till now. Sales never showed/mention anything like that. I didnt have it financed. Paid it the same day I walked in
. So does that entitle me to see or have it? So if my car was placed in demo service shoudnt it be labled as demo? They never offered any type of extension for warranty, only the extended warranty. I did try and bargain for my car. I just hope $5k justifies a year lost on my warranty.I checked out my title, and the section where its supposed to say new, salvage, etc. it was blank. They should do better explanation. Better yet at least mention it. Anyways I'll try and check it out and let yall know wassup. thanks Old man,&others.
[/quote]
Your INSERVICE date determines how much of the 4 year warranty you have. You still get 50k miles; whichever comes first. As I suggested earlier, either look at one of your repair orders (it's probably on there with an 04 or 05 date) or contact BMWNA with your VIN (preferrably in writing).
That you have a blank spot on your title is odd; I'd ask DMV about that. Cal may not differentiate "Demo" some states do, others don't. You didn't see the MSO because the dealer took care of the DMV registration transaction. But whatever was on the MSO should also be on the title (and sales contract).
Since you mentioned a $5K negotiated discount, I must ask if you paid any gas guzzler tax? Also, was the $5K off of the 04 sticker price or off of their asking price?
In sum, I'd say you should be more suspicious and ask more direct questions of your dealer; you seem too willing to absolve him from having not disclosed some VERY crucial info. Most crucial of which is your missing person: John Doe.
You could forward this thread to your sales associate and your attorney...
Good luck,
Ray Hull
01-12-2006, 09:09 AM
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I bought a 2004 demo at Long Beach BMW in August of 2004 and the warranty began when the car was put in service, Dec. of 2003 so I only had 3 years, 4 months of warranty. There was no extra 90 days/5k miles.
davepham671 which dealer did you purchase your car from?
davepham671 which dealer did you purchase your car from?
01-12-2006, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jtp1947' post='223367' date='Jan 12 2006, 01:09 PM
I bought a 2004 demo at Long Beach BMW in August of 2004 and the warranty began when the car was put in service, Dec. of 2003 so I only had 3 years, 4 months of warranty. There was no extra 90 days/5k miles.
davepham671 which dealer did you purchase your car from?
davepham671 which dealer did you purchase your car from?