E60 Discussion Anything and everything to do with the E60 5 Series. All are welcome!

> Aquaplaning

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 10-03-2006, 06:23 PM
  #11  
Contributors
 
pinguhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 21,274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Ride: Mini Cooper
Default

Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='341367' date='Oct 4 2006, 05:47 AM
I can make everyone's tire buying decisions REALLY simple...
Michelin = Good

Anything else = generic crap :thumbsdown:
Personally, if I want to drink a soda.... I'll drink the real thing. Coke.
I don't drink Publix brand Cola so I can save a nickel.
I don't put generic tires on my car, either.
Bridgestone are better becouse I love FERRARI, joking
you can not say which 1 is good because of the road conditions.
In HK there is sand, stone, tarmac, concret, mud, basicly you name it it on the road in HK.
there is no good road in HK so Michelin are not the best. If they where the best why do Ferrari not have them?
Old 10-03-2006, 07:10 PM
  #12  
Senior Members
 
Stranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Ride: Nothing to boast about!
Default

Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='340918' date='Oct 2 2006, 01:14 PM
I spun out on the Dunlops.
I live in Florida, and so I got the Sport Package on my 545i when I bought it.
We don't have winter down here, so I didn't worry about all-season tires.
My car came with the Dunlops, which I hated.... but I decided to let them wear out and then I would change to something new.
I ended up having to spend a few months up in Washington DC last year. So I took my car up there.
There was 1 snow storm, but I was able to leave the car in a garage during that.

When I was returning home to Florida, I made a stop in Charleston SC where my parents live.
I decided to get my car oil changed, and did that in Charleston. This was a few days after Christmas.
The dealer told me when I picked the car up that I needed tires badly. The cords were showing on the Dunlops.

I asked if they had Michelins to fit my car, and they didn't. They would have to order them. I was returning to Florida in a day or two, so I decided to just drive home and order the tires in Florida.
Of course, on the day I drive home it was pouring rain all day.

I was driving on I-95 South just before Jacksonville. It was nighttime. I was in the left lane, driving maybe 75 mph. I was slowly passing a car on my right. As I was approaching this car, it began to hydroplane. I said to myself "Oh Shit", and then tried to give this person some extra room by moving to the left side of my lane. As I did so, my car began to hydroplane. I let go of the gas pedal and tried to correct the skid, but my car was turned 90 degrees sideways before I could do anything. At that point, I knew there would be no recovering, and I stepped on the brake as hard as I could. My car spun out and left the road to the left-hand side. I skidded and spun across the grass median.

While I was skidding, I continued to stand on the brake as hard as possible. I knew that I was going to skid for a while before stopping, and that it was possible I could end up on the other side of the Interstate, with oncoming traffic.

While spinning, I managed to keep VERY clear headed. I remember telling myself:

"OK.... you are spinning, and you are going to end up on the oncoming traffic side of the Interstate. You are going to have to act fast if you want to survive this. When you stop, you need to figure out which way you are facing, and GET OFF THE ROAD ASAP. This might mean going forward, or in reverse... depending on which way I am facing."

So, while I was still spinning I put the SMG into Neutral. I wanted to be ready to go into D or R on a moments notice.

When the car stopped, I quickly looked around to determine which way I was facing. I saw that I was in the fast lane of I-95 North, sideways facing towards the center median. So I put the car into D, and pulled forward quickly into the grass median.

About 2 seconds later, the oncoming traffic flew by.
Needless to say, it was a close call. I probably should be dead. Had I spun out on a section of road with trees, or if I had not acted as quickly to get out of the oncoming traffic... I'd have been splattered.
Remarkably, there was no damage to the car. Not a single scratch on the paint. Only a lot of grass and mud in the wheels.
When I got home, I had Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires installed.

That's one hell of an experience I can live without.

On hind sight, if I remember correctly, you are not supposed to use the brake nor steer the car (gas pedal off of course). One should just let the car slow itselft down or regain its grip. It's probably ok for straight line aquaplanning. But if it's curve-aquaplanning, then it's really praying time...
Old 10-04-2006, 04:11 AM
  #13  
Members
 
inmediate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bilbao. North Atlantic Spain
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='341367' date='Oct 3 2006, 04:47 PM
I can make everyone's tire buying decisions REALLY simple...
Michelin = Good

Anything else = generic crap :thumbsdown:
Personally, if I want to drink a soda.... I'll drink the real thing. Coke.
I don't drink Publix brand Cola so I can save a nickel.
I don't put generic tires on my car, either.
My friend, the real thing is not Coke, but a drink made out of Coca plant leaves from Colombia. That is the original recipe and that is the reason for the formula secret.

That is the real Mc Coy!

Kind regards from Spain
Old 10-04-2006, 04:29 AM
  #14  
Contributors
 
subterFUSE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Winter Park, FL
Posts: 2,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Ride: 2005 545i (SMG) Titanium Gray Black Interior, Anthracite Trim M-tech kit Sport Package Premium Sound Satellite Radio Active Cruise Comfort Seats Navigation Folding rear seats
Default

Originally Posted by Stranger' post='341454' date='Oct 3 2006, 11:10 PM
That's one hell of an experience I can live without.

On hind sight, if I remember correctly, you are not supposed to use the brake nor steer the car (gas pedal off of course). One should just let the car slow itselft down or regain its grip. It's probably ok for straight line aquaplanning. But if it's curve-aquaplanning, then it's really praying time...


Well notice what I wrote:

my car began to hydroplane. I let go of the gas pedal and tried to correct the skid, but my car was turned 90 degrees sideways before I could do anything. At that point, I knew there would be no recovering, and I stepped on the brake as hard as I could. My car spun out and left the road to the left-hand side. I skidded and spun across the grass median.
A few days before this incident, I had been at the BMW Performace Center driving the M5 on the skidpad and racetrack with an instructor.

Notice that when my car began to hydroplane, I did what you said.... released gas, and countersteered to attempt correcting the skid.

The problem was, the skid became irrecoverable almost instantly. I was turned 90 degrees in a split second, and wasn't on the road anymore. At that point, the situation is different. Recovering from the spin isn't the goal anymore. The goal is STOP THIS CAR NOW.

Standing on the brakes, which are ABS by the way, is the fastest way to get the car to stop. Had I let the car spin without braking, I would be dead.... no question about it. The car would have continued spinning for longer, and I would have been hit by oncoming traffic on the other side of the Interstate.
Old 10-04-2006, 04:30 AM
  #15  
Contributors
 
subterFUSE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Winter Park, FL
Posts: 2,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Ride: 2005 545i (SMG) Titanium Gray Black Interior, Anthracite Trim M-tech kit Sport Package Premium Sound Satellite Radio Active Cruise Comfort Seats Navigation Folding rear seats
Default

Originally Posted by dlevi67' post='341373' date='Oct 3 2006, 06:02 PM
Plenty of people who prefer Pepsi... or Bridgestone


They can be wrong, if they want.
Old 10-04-2006, 04:33 AM
  #16  
Senior Members
 
big_ipaq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Romania
Posts: 895
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

I am very surprised, to say at least, that the car spun out of control, on a straight road. Even if aquaplaning...

To spun, a big rotating force is necessary, if aquaplaning this force may be lower, but even so...

Am I missing something?
Old 10-04-2006, 04:44 AM
  #17  
Contributors
 
ats77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: MIAMI B*CH
Posts: 6,959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Ride: MY RIDE is DA real .-) HAMANN 5 aka BLACK MAMBA born on 16/06/2005/delivered on 05/08/2005 as following: 530dA (steptronic), Black II (JET), leather Dakota auburn black, mapple trim, head-up display, dynamic drive, active steering, adaptive xenon headlights (auto levelling) with headlight washers, alarm, comfort seats with massage function, advanced A/C, big compartment armrest, aux-in, MP3, Logic 7, Radio PRO, CD in-dash+cd changer, power rear sunshades, rear airbags, park distance control, auto dimming folding mirrors, smoking package, shiny shadow line (individual), fold down rear seats, ski bag, sport suspension, run flats on �116-style� rims (Good Year NCT5+), cup holders, debadged, fire extinguishers, additional permanent power outlet, BMW coat hanger, trunk release button (installed by Hobi), GPS tracking device and a big thx 2 Iceman. Mods done: � Authentic HAMANN FRONT APRON Including ellipsoid fog lights Item-No.: 10 060 110 � Authentic HAMANN REAR SPOILER Item-No.: 10 060 130, � Authentic HAMANN HAMANN ALUMINIUM PEDALS For cars with manual gearbox Item-No.: 80 099 100 81,00 For cars with automatic transmission Item-No.: 80 099 120 � Authentic HAMANN FOOT REST In aluminium For left-hand drive vehicles Item No. : 80 099 122 � Authentic HAMANN HAND-BRAKE LEVER In aluminium For left- and right-hand drive cars Item No. : 80 099 216 � Authentic HAMANN Idrive of alu (sorry this is the only one in the World) but you can have it in carbon fiber , � Authentic HAMANN EXCLUSIVE FLOORMAT SET In black with HAMANN logo in silver For left-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060 120 For right-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060 � Authentic HAMANN COVER FOR OIL FILLER CAP In aluminium Item-No.: 80 099 117 � Authentic HAMANN SPORT REAR MUFFLER 4 TAILPIPES Sport rear muffler with four round stainless-steel tailpipes ( � 76mm ) Item-No.: 50 060 111 � Authentic HAMANN new add-on for M pack rear with diffusor for quad pipes -AVAILABLE NOW (http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=30630&st=0#entry332409) � ///M steering wheel w Pegasus logo (this will be also changed to three spoke sports) � ///M pack rear � HAMANN ECU upgrade 265 HP 608 Nm. most improtant: �real and working like a charm forumsbuy real LED tails and PIAA 4700k fogs!!! for HAMANN full front apron you need H3 � CustomAngels, Angel Eyes Brighter than stocks 10X, WHITE & (REd for shows). � Authentic HAMANN LIGHT-ALLOY WHEELS DESIGN EDITION RACE 20" Ultra-light forged 3-pieced light-alloy wheel, Cross-spoke-design,Spider in black, titanium, screwing,polished flange DIMENSIONS : 9.0 J x 20 FA Item No.: 91 207 315 10.5 J x 20 only RA Item No.: 91 207 625 Recommended 20" Complete Wheel Set DESIGN EDITION RACE I went with most aggressive Combination A.10 FA 9.0 J x 20 / RA 10.5 J x 20 with tires: FA 245/30 ZR 20 / RA 285/25 ZR 20 � Authentic HAMANN LOWERING KIT 4 progressive sport springs Lowering by approx. 40 mm FA, 20 mm RA Item-No.: 20 060 125 � Authentic HAMANN TIRE - PRESSURE CHECK SENSOR SYSTEM � Authentic HAMANN SIDE SILLS Item-No.: 10 060 120 � Authentic HAMANN REAL CF ROOF SPOLIER Item-No.: 10 060 235 � Authentic HAMANN AIRBAG SPORT STEERING WHEEL 3-SPOKE Three-spoke design w their SMG paddles (For assembly O.E. airbag in exchange) � Authentic HAMANN sports mirrors (all functions) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and of course !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! E60.net Clings Still to do list;-): � Our Hobi's camera system from : ww.switchchange.com). � Individual leather interior (auburn+auburn alcantara)... and drive with sheer drivin' pleasure ... until 2009/2010 F10 comes or E60 possibly a 540d V8 diesel early in 2009 badly juiced!
Default

Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='341547' date='Oct 4 2006, 02:29 PM
Well notice what I wrote:
A few days before this incident, I had been at the BMW Performace Center driving the M5 on the skidpad and racetrack with an instructor.

Notice that when my car began to hydroplane, I did what you said.... released gas, and countersteered to attempt correcting the skid.

The problem was, the skid became irrecoverable almost instantly. I was turned 90 degrees in a split second, and wasn't on the road anymore. At that point, the situation is different. Recovering from the spin isn't the goal anymore. The goal is STOP THIS CAR NOW.

Standing on the brakes, which are ABS by the way, is the fastest way to get the car to stop. Had I let the car spin without braking, I would be dead.... no question about it. The car would have continued spinning for longer, and I would have been hit by oncoming traffic on the other side of the Interstate.

please correct me but what we did on full day aquaplanning track on BMW Drivers training was to put car in Neutral or with manual step on clutch and NO BRAKINGS! That is when the car spins.

From what you wrote Bro I think even if you do that at that speed you would real spin too may be less intensive and I also think giving gas is better than ever stepping on brakes.

When the car is already on aqua-planning the traction is either 0 or little.

However you guys are afraid but I could challenge any of your Michleins with my HANKOOK

ps. pinguhk Ferraris have that too.

Note that before I only had Michleins both summer and winter the newest PS2, but the w300 has more traction in the Winter, on ice or snow.
Old 10-04-2006, 04:45 AM
  #18  
Contributors
 
subterFUSE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Winter Park, FL
Posts: 2,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Ride: 2005 545i (SMG) Titanium Gray Black Interior, Anthracite Trim M-tech kit Sport Package Premium Sound Satellite Radio Active Cruise Comfort Seats Navigation Folding rear seats
Default

Originally Posted by big_ipaq' post='341550' date='Oct 4 2006, 08:33 AM
I am very surprised, to say at least, that the car spun out of control, on a straight road. Even if aquaplaning...

To spun, a big rotating force is necessary, if aquaplaning this force may be lower, but even so...

Am I missing something?

I was surprised, as well.

Like I said.... I had just been practicing drifting at the Performance Center. They have a skidpad, where the turn on water sprinklers. You turn off the DTC and DSC, and then drive in circles. Once up to a decent speed, you step on the brake and steer, which releases the rear tires and causes oversteer. You then turn the steering wheel in the opposite direction and try to keep the car moving. If you don't steer properly, the car will just spin. If you do it right, then you can maintain this drift and continue moving around the skidpad.

This was striaght road. I had DTC and DSC turned on. So I don't know why the car spun. But it did. And it spun before I hit the brakes. Maybe the puddle of water was only on one side of the lane, and only 2 tired lost grip, and the other two still had grip so they caused the spin? I would have figured DSC/DTC would compensate for this.... but obviously they did not.

My spin was to the left.... counterclockwise.


One thing that I forgot to mention.....


A few years ago I was driving on the same stretch of road. I watched a large pick-up truck on the opposite side of the road go into a slow spin, and cross the median and it came all the way into my lane of traffic. He was on I-95 South, I was on I-95 North. It was actually near Jacksonville, too....

Anyway... this guy managed to get control just before he went into my lane.



So.... when I began spinning, I remembered that incident and I knew EXACTLY what was going to happen. I knew I was going to end up on the other side of the highway, because I had seen it happen before.


The reason his truck, and later my car... went all the way to the other side of the Interstate is simple. The the USA, we design the roads with a slight convex shape to allow water to run off the sides. And then the grass median between the two directions of travel are sloped into a small trench which allows water to be channeled away from the road.

So if you leave the road, gravity is going to push you away from your lanes of travel, and towards the opposite side of the highway. The grass median was probably about 50 yards across where I spun out.

I could literally feel the slope of the grass median.... sloping down towards the middle, and then back up towards the North lanes of the Interstate. Without even being able to see, I knew where I was in relation to the road.... just by feeling the incline.
Old 10-04-2006, 05:03 AM
  #19  
Contributors
 
subterFUSE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Winter Park, FL
Posts: 2,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Ride: 2005 545i (SMG) Titanium Gray Black Interior, Anthracite Trim M-tech kit Sport Package Premium Sound Satellite Radio Active Cruise Comfort Seats Navigation Folding rear seats
Default

Originally Posted by ats77' post='341551' date='Oct 4 2006, 08:44 AM
please correct me but what we did on full day aquaplanning track on BMW Drivers training was to put car in Neutral or with manual step on clutch and NO BRAKINGS! That is when the car spins.

From what you wrote Bro I think even if you do that at that speed you would real spin too may be less intensive and I also think giving gas is better than ever stepping on brakes.

When the car is already on aqua-planning the traction is either 0 or little.

However you guys are afraid but I could challenge any of your Michleins with my HANKOOK

ps. pinguhk Ferraris have that too.

Note that before I only had Michleins both summer and winter the newest PS2, but the w300 has more traction in the Winter, on ice or snow.


At the Performance Center we were getting spins by driving, and then stepping on the brake.... this causes the weight of the car to move onto the front tires. You then steer hard, and since the front tires have extra grip from the weight on them, the rear tires have less grip. This releases the rear tires, and the rear end of the car gets loose. You then have oversteer.

When oversteer occurs, you try to move the steering wheel in the opposite direction of the skid.... so if skid to left, turn wheel right.


At the skid pad, as we turned the wheel to the right, we would slowly release the brakes and eventually get back on the gas.... this is how we could control the drift.

The catch is.... you can only control a drift if you maintain controll early on. If the car gets too far sideways before you countersteer... you aren't going to be able to hold it. The car will just continue the spin and skid until stopped.

That was my situation on the highway. I began to spin, so I released the throttle and tried to steer and regain control.... but the car was sideways and still spinning, and on the grass. There wasn't any way to recover at that point. So I just had to stop ASAP. When you have ABS brakes, the fastest way to stop is to stand on the brakes. The ABS will prevent wheel lock.

I think I did the right thing, considering the situation.
Old 10-04-2006, 05:14 AM
  #20  
Contributors
 
ats77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: MIAMI B*CH
Posts: 6,959
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My Ride: MY RIDE is DA real .-) HAMANN 5 aka BLACK MAMBA born on 16/06/2005/delivered on 05/08/2005 as following: 530dA (steptronic), Black II (JET), leather Dakota auburn black, mapple trim, head-up display, dynamic drive, active steering, adaptive xenon headlights (auto levelling) with headlight washers, alarm, comfort seats with massage function, advanced A/C, big compartment armrest, aux-in, MP3, Logic 7, Radio PRO, CD in-dash+cd changer, power rear sunshades, rear airbags, park distance control, auto dimming folding mirrors, smoking package, shiny shadow line (individual), fold down rear seats, ski bag, sport suspension, run flats on �116-style� rims (Good Year NCT5+), cup holders, debadged, fire extinguishers, additional permanent power outlet, BMW coat hanger, trunk release button (installed by Hobi), GPS tracking device and a big thx 2 Iceman. Mods done: � Authentic HAMANN FRONT APRON Including ellipsoid fog lights Item-No.: 10 060 110 � Authentic HAMANN REAR SPOILER Item-No.: 10 060 130, � Authentic HAMANN HAMANN ALUMINIUM PEDALS For cars with manual gearbox Item-No.: 80 099 100 81,00 For cars with automatic transmission Item-No.: 80 099 120 � Authentic HAMANN FOOT REST In aluminium For left-hand drive vehicles Item No. : 80 099 122 � Authentic HAMANN HAND-BRAKE LEVER In aluminium For left- and right-hand drive cars Item No. : 80 099 216 � Authentic HAMANN Idrive of alu (sorry this is the only one in the World) but you can have it in carbon fiber , � Authentic HAMANN EXCLUSIVE FLOORMAT SET In black with HAMANN logo in silver For left-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060 120 For right-hand drive cars Item-No. : 80 060 � Authentic HAMANN COVER FOR OIL FILLER CAP In aluminium Item-No.: 80 099 117 � Authentic HAMANN SPORT REAR MUFFLER 4 TAILPIPES Sport rear muffler with four round stainless-steel tailpipes ( � 76mm ) Item-No.: 50 060 111 � Authentic HAMANN new add-on for M pack rear with diffusor for quad pipes -AVAILABLE NOW (http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=30630&st=0#entry332409) � ///M steering wheel w Pegasus logo (this will be also changed to three spoke sports) � ///M pack rear � HAMANN ECU upgrade 265 HP 608 Nm. most improtant: �real and working like a charm forumsbuy real LED tails and PIAA 4700k fogs!!! for HAMANN full front apron you need H3 � CustomAngels, Angel Eyes Brighter than stocks 10X, WHITE & (REd for shows). � Authentic HAMANN LIGHT-ALLOY WHEELS DESIGN EDITION RACE 20" Ultra-light forged 3-pieced light-alloy wheel, Cross-spoke-design,Spider in black, titanium, screwing,polished flange DIMENSIONS : 9.0 J x 20 FA Item No.: 91 207 315 10.5 J x 20 only RA Item No.: 91 207 625 Recommended 20" Complete Wheel Set DESIGN EDITION RACE I went with most aggressive Combination A.10 FA 9.0 J x 20 / RA 10.5 J x 20 with tires: FA 245/30 ZR 20 / RA 285/25 ZR 20 � Authentic HAMANN LOWERING KIT 4 progressive sport springs Lowering by approx. 40 mm FA, 20 mm RA Item-No.: 20 060 125 � Authentic HAMANN TIRE - PRESSURE CHECK SENSOR SYSTEM � Authentic HAMANN SIDE SILLS Item-No.: 10 060 120 � Authentic HAMANN REAL CF ROOF SPOLIER Item-No.: 10 060 235 � Authentic HAMANN AIRBAG SPORT STEERING WHEEL 3-SPOKE Three-spoke design w their SMG paddles (For assembly O.E. airbag in exchange) � Authentic HAMANN sports mirrors (all functions) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and of course !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! E60.net Clings Still to do list;-): � Our Hobi's camera system from : ww.switchchange.com). � Individual leather interior (auburn+auburn alcantara)... and drive with sheer drivin' pleasure ... until 2009/2010 F10 comes or E60 possibly a 540d V8 diesel early in 2009 badly juiced!
Default

Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='341553' date='Oct 4 2006, 03:03 PM
At the Performance Center we were getting spins by driving, and then stepping on the brake.... this causes the weight of the car to move onto the front tires. You then steer hard, and since the front tires have extra grip from the weight on them, the rear tires have less grip. This releases the rear tires, and the rear end of the car gets loose. You then have oversteer.

When oversteer occurs, you try to move the steering wheel in the opposite direction of the skid.... so if skid to left, turn wheel right.
At the skid pad, as we turned the wheel to the right, we would slowly release the brakes and eventually get back on the gas.... this is how we could control the drift.

The catch is.... you can only control a drift if you maintain controll early on. If the car gets too far sideways before you countersteer... you aren't going to be able to hold it. The car will just continue the spin and skid until stopped.

That was my situation on the highway. I began to spin, so I released the throttle and tried to steer and regain control.... but the car was sideways and still spinning, and on the grass. There wasn't any way to recover at that point. So I just had to stop ASAP. When you have ABS brakes, the fastest way to stop is to stand on the brakes. The ABS will prevent wheel lock.

I think I did the right thing, considering the situation.
what only counts is both of you survived in one piece


Quick Reply: > Aquaplaning



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:53 PM.