550 to a 535?
#41
![Default](https://5series.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
At the end of the day, you're right, they are both great cars. The issues will be resolved, but there will be added cost involved (like you mentioned the flywheel). I can't imagine a 600HP car using the normal single plate clutch either, and once you go triple plate it isn't streetable anymore. Years ago I used to race a Honda Accord in SCCA, it had an H22A with a large T34 turbo and it was fun to drive, on a track, the triple plate clutch needed for that power (360HP at the wheels) wasn't good for street use.
#42
New Members
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: central IL
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: in the market for a 535i
![Default](https://5series.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Why would you use a triple plate clutch for 360hp honda? I used a single 4 plug clutch on my 450hp integra with no issues. A triple plate clutch would cost over $2000. I did switch to a twin disc and I still daily drive it and it's not a hassle at all. Why anyone would get a 550i when you can get a cheaper and a LOT fast 535i/xi is beyond me. 550's are slow compared to a 535. Adding a $10k super charger to a 550 will still be tons slower to a FBO 535 with RB turbos and it still will be cheaper.
#44
New Members
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: central IL
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My Ride: in the market for a 535i
#45
![Default](https://5series.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
exactly
i have no idea why everyone compare "modded" 535i to a "stock" 550i
apple to orange
you can install ESS on 550i and get another 120HP so no need to keep "off topic"
• 6PSI Supercharger system for BMW E60/61 550i and E63/64 650i.
• Adds 120 hp/80 ft. lbs. torque
i have no idea why everyone compare "modded" 535i to a "stock" 550i
apple to orange
you can install ESS on 550i and get another 120HP so no need to keep "off topic"
• 6PSI Supercharger system for BMW E60/61 550i and E63/64 650i.
• Adds 120 hp/80 ft. lbs. torque
The 550 is an amazing car but its best left stock. The 535, not so much. Here's a post I made last time this topic came up.
I'm in a unique position to comment since I've owned both. Let's start with the M5. It's amazing. Seriously, it is just an insanely awesome car with tons of horsepower, an exotic engine and a transmission that shifts so fast it's silly. It's essentially a 4 door super car. And that's it's undoing. It's cost of ownership is through the roof. There's the Embarrassingly bad gas mileage, the $500 rotors, the SMG issues, VANOS issues, etc.
The M5 is attractive because the cost to get into the door is similar to other, slower E60's. Unfortunately when you have to live with one the bills add up and fast. Plus let's be honest, in daily driving do the huge brakes do any better than the large brakes on the 535/ 550s? The lack of torque means the car isn't exactly quick from stoplight to stoplight either. As far as street cars go, the M5 is awesome but you're not going to be taking full advantage of it's potential.
And then there's the 535. Before I go off on the 535 let me explain my history. I wanted an M5 bad. I test drove them a bunch, did months of research, knew about the shortcomings, the cost of ownership, etc and knew I could afford it. I also bought a warranty for $5000 which had a 1000 mile grace period. Long story short, the SMG pump failed on my car within 300 miles of me purchasing it. Not covered by the warranty at all and $6000 to fix plus you may as well do the clutch when you're in there. Lucky for me the dealer took the car back.
So from there I bought a 2006 550i Sport with the manual transmission. I loved the car but the 360hp V8 wasn't enough for me and so I started pining for an M5 again but now I wasn't so sure I wanted to take on the additional cost of ownership. I knew I could afford it; I just wasn't so sure I wanted to. And then somewhere in my travels I discovered the 535 and the various tunes available for it and ultimately ended up buying a 2010 CPO car with the SAT trans. In stock form it's about as fast as the 550i but I bought it knowing that you can easily (and reliably) pull a lot more power out of it. A JB4 piggyback module and a dual cone intake will add about 100 horsepower without much fuss. Add E85 and you can bump that up by another 25 - 45 horsepower. It's easily removed as well.
The beauty of this setup is that you have a lot more torque than the M5 and you have peak torque from about 1500rpm through 5500rpm. Whereas the M5 is peaky and needs to be wound up to make it's power, the N54 is a freight train. And when you consider the environment you'll be driving the car most (the street) the extra torque is a huge benefit. The M5 will still be the faster car overall but the 535 will feel significantly faster where it matters (assuming you tune it) and it wouldn't be bested by the M5 unless you were doing a highway run.
The rest all pretty much goes without saying... The brakes are cheaper to replace, the suspension less complex though still plenty competent, no SMG issues, much better gas mileage and your 2010 will have the newer CIC navigation setup (assuming it's equipped with nav). Slap a set of M5 or M6 wheels on it and you have a car that basically looks like an M5 but that's also a lot more civil.
My vote is for the 535. I've had it for 4 months now and I still can't just take it across the street to the store. If I take it out I always end up hopping up and down the expressway just to stretch it's legs. I don't think the honeymoon will end.
That said, the M5 is amazing. You just have to ignore the cost of entry and figure out what both are going to cost you long term and determine if the higher cost of ownership is worth it for you. For me it ultimately wasn't and my failed SMG pump turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
I'll leave you with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGNX8SD_rUE
The M5 is attractive because the cost to get into the door is similar to other, slower E60's. Unfortunately when you have to live with one the bills add up and fast. Plus let's be honest, in daily driving do the huge brakes do any better than the large brakes on the 535/ 550s? The lack of torque means the car isn't exactly quick from stoplight to stoplight either. As far as street cars go, the M5 is awesome but you're not going to be taking full advantage of it's potential.
And then there's the 535. Before I go off on the 535 let me explain my history. I wanted an M5 bad. I test drove them a bunch, did months of research, knew about the shortcomings, the cost of ownership, etc and knew I could afford it. I also bought a warranty for $5000 which had a 1000 mile grace period. Long story short, the SMG pump failed on my car within 300 miles of me purchasing it. Not covered by the warranty at all and $6000 to fix plus you may as well do the clutch when you're in there. Lucky for me the dealer took the car back.
So from there I bought a 2006 550i Sport with the manual transmission. I loved the car but the 360hp V8 wasn't enough for me and so I started pining for an M5 again but now I wasn't so sure I wanted to take on the additional cost of ownership. I knew I could afford it; I just wasn't so sure I wanted to. And then somewhere in my travels I discovered the 535 and the various tunes available for it and ultimately ended up buying a 2010 CPO car with the SAT trans. In stock form it's about as fast as the 550i but I bought it knowing that you can easily (and reliably) pull a lot more power out of it. A JB4 piggyback module and a dual cone intake will add about 100 horsepower without much fuss. Add E85 and you can bump that up by another 25 - 45 horsepower. It's easily removed as well.
The beauty of this setup is that you have a lot more torque than the M5 and you have peak torque from about 1500rpm through 5500rpm. Whereas the M5 is peaky and needs to be wound up to make it's power, the N54 is a freight train. And when you consider the environment you'll be driving the car most (the street) the extra torque is a huge benefit. The M5 will still be the faster car overall but the 535 will feel significantly faster where it matters (assuming you tune it) and it wouldn't be bested by the M5 unless you were doing a highway run.
The rest all pretty much goes without saying... The brakes are cheaper to replace, the suspension less complex though still plenty competent, no SMG issues, much better gas mileage and your 2010 will have the newer CIC navigation setup (assuming it's equipped with nav). Slap a set of M5 or M6 wheels on it and you have a car that basically looks like an M5 but that's also a lot more civil.
My vote is for the 535. I've had it for 4 months now and I still can't just take it across the street to the store. If I take it out I always end up hopping up and down the expressway just to stretch it's legs. I don't think the honeymoon will end.
That said, the M5 is amazing. You just have to ignore the cost of entry and figure out what both are going to cost you long term and determine if the higher cost of ownership is worth it for you. For me it ultimately wasn't and my failed SMG pump turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
I'll leave you with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGNX8SD_rUE
#46
Contributors
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 10,496
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
My Ride: 2008 550I LOADED, all options except HUD and NV
![Default](https://5series.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Why would you use a triple plate clutch for 360hp honda? I used a single 4 plug clutch on my 450hp integra with no issues. A triple plate clutch would cost over $2000. I did switch to a twin disc and I still daily drive it and it's not a hassle at all. Why anyone would get a 550i when you can get a cheaper and a LOT fast 535i/xi is beyond me. 550's are slow compared to a 535. Adding a $10k super charger to a 550 will still be tons slower to a FBO 535 with RB turbos and it still will be cheaper.
I modded mine as a weekend race car, not a street car. As a privateer racer the Honda was perfect, VERY dependable engine, never even rebuilt it in 4 yrs of racing. Upgrade parts are cheap compared to other brands - even Acura. Plus it was a blast smoking Corvettes both off the line and through corners. Back then I raced against some familiar names with much better backing than I had (Joey Hand, Bill Auberlain, etc).
#47
![Default](https://5series.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
It's more than just the speed or power. The 550's tend to be better optioned, also more reliable. I can add the SC kit and keep reliability, I can point you to dozens of posts on other forums detailing the loss of reliability and damage in highly modded 535/335/135 cars. Thanks, but I plan on keeping my car for a while, then reselling for a good price later.
If you take a step back and objectively look at the two cars a modified 535 is going to be faster, most likely more reliable, easier to fix if it breaks and cheaper to purchase not to mention lighter in the front end by 200+ lbs which results in a notable improvement. Take the time to find one that's well equipped and yes, it's hard to consider why anyone would choose to modify a 550 over a 535 and this is coming from a previous owner of an E60 M5 & 550.
#48
Contributors
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 10,496
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
My Ride: 2008 550I LOADED, all options except HUD and NV
![Default](https://5series.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
If you take a step back and objectively look at the two cars a modified 535 is going to be faster, most likely more reliable, easier to fix if it breaks and cheaper to purchase not to mention lighter in the front end by 200+ lbs which results in a notable improvement. Take the time to find one that's well equipped and yes, it's hard to consider why anyone would choose to modify a 550 over a 535 and this is coming from a previous owner of an E60 M5 & 550.
Which would all cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than the claimed "under $10k".
The engine alone in my old Accord ran reliably because it had thousands invested in it to ensure reliability. It did have a dry sump oil system and oil cooler, forged crank - connecting rods - pistons - even stainless sleeves in the cylinders, upgraded cams, custom ECU software, even the heads were ported and polished. The gearbox was a custom racing unit, so were the axles. All this so I could actually try to compete with 20 PSI of boost.
So you're going to seriously tell me the x35 cars running 20+ PSI of boost will be more reliable than a 550 running 6 PSI? Really? Seriously? Yes, it will produce about 100 more HP, but as the AT guys are already learning, the slush box can't handle the 420+ HP they already have at stage 2 kits. Of the stage 3 kits out there, none are perfected for reliability. The stage 2 kits produce about the same WHP as the ESS SC kit for the 550, which is to say ~420 with other mods (ESS website lists a 550 that is otherwise stock) and produces 398WHP with the kit, with exhaust and intake mods plus injectors, pump, and coils 420-440 WHP should be easily attainable in the 550. And that's sticking with 6 PSI of boost, if boost levels rise there could be a lot more possible.
#49
![Default](https://5series.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
First, to claim the 535/335/135 (N54) is a very reliable platform is laughable, just read through the E60 discussion section and compare the number of 535 posts vs the 550 posts.
The more obvious point is that so many people are actively modifying these engines that diagnosing them has become very easy, another benefit to the N54.
I am talking about the "claimed" 600WHP that some tuners tout (even though no one has seen any of these cars or seen dynos, or timeslips as of yet). One thing I have learned from tuning just about every single car I have ever owned is that you are a lot more successful when you start with a strong reliable platform. A car like the x35 cars, that has had thousands of issues, recalls, even class action lawsuits and hundreds of lemoned cars is not exactly ideal.
Nope, you need a huge turbo, better cooling system, stronger trans -driveshaft - diff, and ultimately stronger internals like crank shafts, connecting rods, pistons, lifters, camshafts, and (most of the time) an upgraded lubrication system. All of which would be required for the car to handle 20-25 psi reliably.
Then we come to the issue of ancillary parts such as the pistons, rods, etc you mentioned. Let me sidetrack for a minute... I own a company that modifies GM's 3800 engines. In the early years people in the community insisted that to make big power you needed to have forged pistons, stronger connecting rods, etc but by and large the engines had almost no failures unless they exhibited knock which they wouldn't do on a proper setup. The engine is so resilient that we can remove the supercharger, install an intercooled turbo setup at 17lbs, make 500hp and have no concerns about the engine blowing. Until very recently there were Grand Prixs running 9 second quarter mile passes on nothing more than junkyard blocks. Now of course this isn't the norm. On many platforms you do need to reinforce the bottom end but to insinuate that it's a must on the 535 and wouldn't be on the 550 is pure speculation on your part. You're taking your experience with your Accord and applying it to everything but it doesn't work that way.
In fact, It hasn't been since the 3800 that I've seen an engine as resilient to power as the N54. I can't think of a single post I've come across where someone has seriously damaged their engine. I'm sure there are people out there who have but you just don't see it with any kind of degree of regularity. The PCM acts really quickly to mitigate knock. Say what you will about the N54 but its ability to handle power is not its weak point. The ancillary components are and as I already mentioned, their replacements are both cheap and in most cases don't suffer from the same failings as the original parts.
So you're going to seriously tell me the x35 cars running 20+ PSI of boost will be more reliable than a 550 running 6 PSI? Really?
I'm also saying that with the 535 you know what you're going to get. There are tens of thousands of other people out there doing the same thing you're doing so results are very predictable. You're not treading new ground and if and when you run into issues you have the experiences of all those people to fall back on. You don't need to find the one other guy with an ESS supercharger and say "Hey Joe... Did your number 6 piston pop out of the hood when you upped the boost 1 lb?".
Further examples... The early 2000's Mustang V8s could handle very limited amounts of boost before requiring significant engine upgrades whereas the 3800s my company modifies can run high teens without any kind of required engine modifications.
So then, you have someone that wants say 450 up at the crank out of their E60. They have the choice of buying the car that's already equipped with force induction and can get them to their target horsepower number with minimal fuss all while being able to glean from the experiences of the other tens of thousands of people modifiying the same engine or they can pay thousands more for a 550, pay thousands for a supercharger kit that realistically probably under 100 people own, have a much smaller sample of experience to learn from, install the setup on an engine who's reaction to boost is not well known because it's very rarely done and then have a car that gets exponentially worse gas mileage.
Yeah, no I don't get where you're coming from all... Maybe if the 550 was commonly modified or there was an inexpensive supercharger kit out there for it your arguments would make sense but that's not reality. There is literally no good reason I can see for picking the 550 over the 535 if you're going to modify them which is why I promptly dumped my beloved 550 once my desire for power exceeded the 550's abilities. In my opinion, once you reach the power limitations of the N54 you're better off skipping the 550 and going right to the M5. Which isn't to say the 550 is horrible. It's actually great right out of the box. There just so happen to be two better E60s available if overall power is your ultimate goal.
Last edited by Mike_K; 03-03-2013 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Spelling errors, ohhhh the spelling errors!
#50
Contributors
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 10,496
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
My Ride: 2008 550I LOADED, all options except HUD and NV
![Default](https://5series.net/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Mike, funny thing is we agree without agreeing (if that sounds right), I am not saying the 535 cannot handle 450-470 you mentioned. Another poster posted about much higher HP coming out of the kits out there. And no, I don't think the engine will easily handle THAT kind of HP. I also don't see how the 535 engine is more capable of handling 450-470 than the 550's engine. The Supercharger kit gives the 550 around 480 HP, which should be right in the wheelhouse of the base engine. In fact, I would argue that the 550's N62 engine is more reliable with a supercharger than the M5's S85, which is a MUCH more delicate powerplant.
The previous poster claimed that there were kits out there for the 535 that produced 600WHP, and my contention is that there is no way that engine, trans and drivetrain can handle that in stock form. And the modifications to make it possible would render the car basically a track only car.
I mean, c'mon, there is supposedly an Xi version from Vishnu with 610WHP - with no modification to the rest of the drivetrain. Really? Granted, no one has seen it, or the dyno runs, or the timeslips. However, the claim that the bone stock trans and transfer case can handle that? Do you really think so? Sounds similar to claiming those 1200HP Supras have stock drivetrains.
The previous poster claimed that there were kits out there for the 535 that produced 600WHP, and my contention is that there is no way that engine, trans and drivetrain can handle that in stock form. And the modifications to make it possible would render the car basically a track only car.
I mean, c'mon, there is supposedly an Xi version from Vishnu with 610WHP - with no modification to the rest of the drivetrain. Really? Granted, no one has seen it, or the dyno runs, or the timeslips. However, the claim that the bone stock trans and transfer case can handle that? Do you really think so? Sounds similar to claiming those 1200HP Supras have stock drivetrains.
Last edited by pjinca; 03-03-2013 at 08:03 PM.