double-trouble

Hi all,

I'm new round here. I am looking for advice and/or contacts - someone who knows the INPA software and how to re-code/mash things together.

Background
The car - An e61 525d (MY 2006) manual box, engine code M57D25TÜ. It's at 185k miles - so just run in nicely ;-) It's quite stock atm.
Me - I'm good with the oily bits and have some systems/IT skills too - but, not BMW 5 series specific.

The problem
My DMF is starting to clank and clutch take-up judders sometimes. I'm pretty sure this means it's new flywheel and clutch time.
Me - I have bad upgraditis - have had since I was a kid. I don;t have deep pockets.
So, just putting in a new DMF and clutch is not a big enough challenge and.....**I just bought an M57D30TÜ2 that needs (quite a bit of work).

The plan
Drive the car around a bit longer. Work on the*M57D30TÜ2 to make it like new (including a quick port and polish to the head and back cut valves) - stick on a NEW dmf and clutch.
THEN take the car off the road for a couple of months. swap the old motor out and the new motor in.
Re-assemble the car around it - CODE THE ECU and modules to work together and put it back on the road.

Options
1/ Build it with the 525 ecu, diesel pump, injectors and turbo. I think I will run but not much better than stock (170Hp). Advantage - no coding and not much cost
2/ Build it with 525 ecu, 530*diesel pump, injectors and turbo. I think it could be doable - should go to 235Hp. Disadvantage - need to code the ECU, Injectors, Pump and turbo actuator together - and I am not sure I have the skills or kit. Also, might wear-out/break the gearbox and diff?
3/ Go for the 535d setup (twin turbos). Disadvantages expen$ive and complex turbo setup, i WILL break the gearbox, I am likely to loose my licence.

So,
Anyone done this (option 2) before?
Anyone able to recommend someone who could do the coding?

Thanks in advance
Mark

double-trouble

Replying to oneself is not this done thing - so, I'm just adding some further info - in case it's of use to someone in the future ;-)

Study of real OEM and interwebs has uncovered the following component differences (525 vs 530) for this model year (post LCI is different - the engines are same displacement)

Displacement;- the 3.0 has longer stroke crank and (I guess) shorter rods (or shorter compression height pistons)
Inlet valves (can't be 100% sure yet - but, think they're bigger on the 3.0)
Injectors and fuel pump (2.5 is 1350 bar, 3.0 = 1600 bar)
Turbos are different - 3.0 is a Garret GT 2260V (VNT), 2.5 is a Garret GT 2056U (wastegate)
Exhaust manifold and Catalyst/dpf is different
The Flywheel is different (3.0 is a bit heavier)

I still believe I could fit the 3.0 block (and head) into my 2.5 car with it's turbo, fuel pump and ecu - I'd see little (if any) performance gain (might get a bit extra low end grunt?) but, it should 'just' work.
Or, maybe not... The ECU *might* throw errors if the mass airflow goes outside "tolerance" of the expected range. It might throw an eml code and may go "limp home".
So, I've done a bit more digging on the ECU/electronics side and found "it's complicated".

Amongst the reasons are:-
1/ There's a high degree of integration, interconnectionedness and interdependence between many/most of the modules on the system buses (yes there are multiple buses - or networks), oh and and they learn from each other and don't forget - unless you tell them too.
2/ The precise details vary by model and year
3/ Most everything is in German (which, I don't speak)
4/ It's all kind of hidden/proprietary and "magic" or voodoo - knowledge is power, and hard won - good reliable information is hard to come by
5/ There are many ways to go wrong (and break things expensively)
6/ I know only enough to be dangerous - very dangerous
7/ Nobody expects the comfy chair and
8/ There is no safety net

You have been warned!
Now, read on

In a diesel bmw the ECU is called the "DDE" (Digital Diesel Electronics). In my age of car the DDE is a Bosche unit (and a pretty powerful one at that).
As you'd expect the DDE is different between the 3.0 and the 2.5 - I think it *might* be the same hardware, and it's only the firmware/mapping that differs but, don't yet know for sure.

I'm pretty certain the DDE needs to be "coded" for the HP pump and every injector (to account for their individual fuel flow characteristics) AND, for the 3.0 at least, coded to the VNT turbo module.
This means it'll probably be easier to transplant the donor (3.0) DDE into my car than to re-flash my ecu to the 3.0 firmware, maps and codes etc.
(oh, and the DDE needs to be at firmware version more than 3.0 to be re-flashable too).

BUT, the DDE is self coded to a number of other modules on the bus(es) - most of these can be "re-set" to self learn the new DDE.
AND THEN, there's the security. And your name is not on the list.

The E60/61 of this generation has a thing called the CAS. it's an anti-theft system / security module...
The DDE and CAS have rolling encrypted codes – which must be in sync – so, very difficult to swap parts (which is great most of the time, 'till it's really really bad, like, for me now - right?)

So, I need to bring the CAS and DDE from the donor together. And.. the CAS bone is connected to the steering lock module bone, which is connected to the key bones.... So they need come too.

THEN all I need to do is, make the VIN number match in all modules on the bus(es)
(i.e. change the VIN in the new DDE, CAS and steering lock) to be the VIN of my car and set them all to "re-learn" from scratch
(without loosing all the nice features and configs I already have setup).

As this last process involves A LOT of tools/skills and work - that is the bit I'm looking for someone to help with - and to be clear I am willing to pay for that help - at a fair price (not what a main dealer demands).

(trying to ignore the call of the twin turbo, plus autobox possibility - and the ccc to cic upgrade and the call of ACC). Sigh.

Do remember, that I know it would be (probably) be cheaper to just to chop my car in for a newer one and I deliberately choose to take the path less travelled....

This post has been brought to you today by Cardinal Fang, the obscure cultural references typist
(respect to anyone who spotted the Monty Python references)

Interista1908

Hi. Is this thread dead.
How has your project ended?

double-trouble

Wow - Zombie thread - reserected...

Predictably the project stalled.

Bassically the new motor is built taking space in my garange.
The car is currently SORNed (off the road) - as I don't need it due to pandemic.

I still haven't found anyone to help coding...

Interista1908

I'm nowhere near a BMW pro but I have same e60 with 525d preLCI and of course I was considering 3.0 upgrade.
I think I can help you in terms of upgrading electronic part. Do you by chance have diag cable and software in place (BMW standard tool) if yes I can assist remotely

Interista1908

Also some my findings:

To fit 3.0 you also need injectors.
- In terms of DDE flash it doesn't look too difficult if you're keeping solenoid injectors that were fitted in preLCI and LCI 525d.
- As for injectors you can just swap the nozzles - fitting ones from 530d or even 535d into your 525d injector bodies

Definitely, you won't break the manual box with even 535d upgrade - the box is rated to about 1000 Nm. The weakest part is the clutch which is good to about 600Nm. So in terms of performance, it's better retrofitting auto gbx.
BTW the 3.0 you have is running solenoid injectors which won't work in preLCI ECU. You need to cover it with a cylinder head from 525d. And 525d has a R90 fuel pump which is better than the crappy R70 that is retrofitted in M57N2 and they're both are running on 1600 Bar peak pressure

double-trouble

Thanks Interista1908 - useful info... I'll digest it when I get time.

It's been so long I don't recall all the details of the motor I built well! (it's an alloy 3lt block - it came from a low milage X5 3.0D). The engine had had some issue and was replaced under warranty by BMW about a year before the car was scrapped (after a roll-over accident). This meant the engine was later than the car by about 4 years - so it's very modern alloy block - which ius nice - but, it did lead to trouble (for me) identifying and getting parts!

Here's some of the things I learned so far (hopefully of use to others at some point).

I put the newer (3.0) head back on the 3.0 block - becuase it had larger inlet valves than the 2.5 head (otherwise they looked identical - though to be honest I didn't closely inspect the injector pockets etc).

Bigger valves = more airflow potential = more power potential.
If i remeber right the inlet and exhaust valves are the same size (in the 2.5 head) - and the part numbers are same - so same material etc etc. SO - if you wanted you could possibly cut bigger seats and fit (the new bigger) inlet valves to the exhaust side of the head too. for extra flow. (I expect the gain would be marginal and I didn't do this - I am not after maximum power.

the 2.5 head has plenty of meat - so no trouble in theory to fit bigger valves (not sure if you'll need different seat inserts though?)

I took a bit of time to do a *light* port job on my heads (2.5 and 3.0) - it didn't take long - the castings are good quality (and I am not going for max power). I also had a local specialist engineering works *lightly* "back cut" the valves. (they were a pretty good shape stock). I took a lot of care to try and ENHANCE the flow and SWIRL imparted by the vertical inlet port. I believe this is important for good combustion (which means not only economy but, also efficiency, low emissions and power guys) - do not just "hog out" loads of material in that port! This is also why I plan to KEEP the swirl flaps (controversial with some I think!).

I had a *LOT* of trouble getting piston rings - it took months!
There seem to be quite a few design differences in different versions of this motor across the years (forums would have you beleve they are all same - but, NOT so).
I had a damaged piston - it took a long time to find one that was same combustion chamber size, weight and piston ring gaps...

Then it took a long time to get the right rings (there are many different types).

There seem to be two basic types of piston - which I'll call "low comporession" and "high compression". The key difference is the size of the combustion chamber in the top of the piston. the "low compression" pistons have a LARGER pocket for combustion. These seem to be used in the higher power applications (twin turbo setup particularly). You want these if you want to make big boost and max power. I do not want max power - I want good effeciency.
So I used the higher compression (smaller pocket) pistons.

While researching this I bought another (cheap) 2.5 engine - with issues. THAT was interesting... a guy had had it 'tuned" by someone... don't know the details but, the motor was a mess! They'd basically overfueled and or over boosted it (a lot). Two of the (high comopression) pistons had started to melt - around the edges of the combustion chambers. They must have driven it hard like this - becuase there was aluminium spray all down the exhaust. Yet the motor still ran.... they pulled it only after it wouldn't start reliably.... basically the overboots/fuel had overheated and eroded the combustion chambers. in two cylinders they were so big that there wasn't enough compression to ignite and burn the mixture while cranking. Instead it just pumoped raw disel down the exhaust... lots of white smoke.

None of this was a proiblem to me - I knew it was bad and paid very little for it. Intereting though. Moral - be careful who you trust to "tune" you car.

You remeinded me that I left the (old 2.5) pump and injectors with a diesel specialist for testing about a year ago (I suspect one or two were bad after the above abuse!) and have not been in touch - I have got to get those back...

I do have a (couple of) diag cables and some coding software which I had some success with in the past.
But, not used it in a while.. That (old) laptop is gathering dust in my loft!

I need to get my head back into the project.

M

double-trouble

Nearly forgot - yeah, I think the gearbox is plenty strong enough.

My dmf was a bit "clanky" - I don't much like these anyhow - so welded it solid *THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE* IDK yet...
Maybe I'll get a lot of vibration if I "lug" the motor hard (lots of throttle at low rpms)? time will tell.

I also took some weight off the flywheel while it was on the lathe (can't help myself sometimes) becuase I like a "free spinning" motor (i find it also helps with down changes esp in lower gears). I had it one the lathe to true up the pressure surface - welding can make them go a bit wonky leading to judder.

I am not worried about the clutch - I've built plenty of tuned engines and seldom had trouble with stock clutch if it's in good condition - they key is not to abuse it. No stock clutch will survive much abuse in a tuned application....

I did get a new clutch plate and cover - and spent a long time trying to find one with a sprung centre (the DMF style ones have solid centre style - not good for a solid flywheel application).

Again I've had trouble getting the correct parts (Not just this build but, other makers too recently) - it seems clutch parts vary depending on the engine, the gearbox, the flywheel and the year/month. Almost all places now use the car registration ONLY to get the right bits. Which is USELESS if you (like me) are building stuff from multiple sources/manufacturers...

Hope someone is able to benefit

stop reading here - the next bit is just me ranting :-)

Some places won't even sell you stuff without a regiistration number (in case you return it becuase it won't fit).
Me at checkout buying oil (for a track car); "Yeah, the car hasn't got a registration",
Sales guy "er, we need the registration number to make sure it fits, sir"
Me "yeah, it's not a road car. it doesn't have aregistration besides - it's OIL. Oil will 'fit' - you know about liquids, like how they flow to assume the shape of the container? (in this case an air cooled flat 6, 3.7ltr container :-)"
Sales guy "it might be the wrong type of oil sir"
Me, "no I checked - it is EXACTLY the right type of (fully synth - expensive race) oil, as recommended by Porsche - see, it says here (points)"
Sales guy "well it's company policy...".
Me, "do you want the sale or not? I can buy this stuff on-line and have it deleivered for less than you want you know - I'm just trying to support your business"...
Him "er, I guess I could just make up a registration"....
Me, "great, now, can I have a clutch too" :-)

Interista1908

That's interesting.


So you're about to fit m57n2 engine. Those are known for shortened timing chain longevity - about 250k km.


Also have piezo injectors so your 525d ECU is not able to drive those injectors. You need ECU swapped. And that is causing some overhead as you need to sync it up with your CAS module. You have manual - that eases retrofitting ECU a bit.The pros of the piezos is that they flow a lot of fuel and are good to 400+ HP. They overflow lot less fuel to the return line so BMW decided to fit a smaller flow pump on LCI models (R70). So fitting them with the pre LCI high pressure pump (R90) and m50d rail pressure regulator plus rail pressure sensor from n57 engine can allow running 2200 bar rail pressure with proper ECU calibration. But again as the engine block is alu alloy and has cylinder sleeves it relibely whistands about 360 HP so the gains that cylinder head provides can not be 100% used with no risk.


I know that the pistons are supplied by Nural or Mahle and yep, they're different. But I thought that piston rings should be the same.


As for 2,5 engine it has solenoid injectors that are known for nozzle needle seizing at higher combustion temperatures - that may be a reason for melted pistons even with stock engine firmware.

But as those engines are quite cheap at scrap yards (about 200 pounds here) it allows you some freedom in expirementing with performance modding))


​​​​@double trouble I see you're quite experienced with hardware of those M57. For me it's just a hobby so excuse me for a dumb question - how do you think is it possible to turn 2,5 into 3,0 by fitting into 2,5 the crankshaft and conrods from 3,0 (increase stroke). And one more thing - the injectors in 2,5 have spraying angle of 162 degrees. The 3,0 angle is 160 degrees. Will it affect engine behavior in a negative way if I'll fit 3,0 injectors with a 2,5 pistons? Thanks