Spy shot of the new Porsche Panamera
09-24-2006, 07:42 AM
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... you misunderstood me once more. I really really really like the cayenne, however stange it seems, and i also like porsches as a whole. In fact a fully loaded cayenne turbo costs less than a carrera s , so it seems like a good purchase for some.What i do not like is that instead of weight-reduction, they aim to increase horsepower to counter the fact that the cayenne is a fat pig. And a combination of 500bhp+ and 2550kg (fully loaded spec cayenne turbo) is not very clever?
hence i have made my point for a 4.8is , 367bhp and 2225kg .. trust me the 300kg+ make one hell of a difference... both are by no means lean cars, but if porsche were able to reduce the weight to 2200kg nothing could possibly beat them
btw: post some pics of the beast please
really want to see it
09-25-2006, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Heiss5' post='337546' date='Sep 22 2006, 03:45 PM
m630,
I suppose there will never be anyway for anyone to convince you that the Cayenne is not completely pointless, just like there is probably no way anyone will ever convince me that it is pointless, but I will try just for the sake of trying.
1.) You said the Cayenne is a show off car. This is 100% true, but isn't every Porsche? I mean, isn't that kind of why you get a Porsche, to show off that your car can outperform anyone else?s? To say, even though I could have gotten the same car you have, I decided to spend a little extra to get something a little bit more individual and unique?
2.) You asked if anyone needs a car so powerful and yet so functional? I'm lost on this one, who doesn't want that? I know I want that. A car that seats 5, averages 17mpg (at least my turbo does), can hold all of my crap in the trunk without sacrificing anyone else?s space, and yet still be faster than 90% of the cars that you commonly see on the road. I think that is amazing, and I love that. That is engineering at its finest if you ask me.
3.) The Cayenne can't go 180mph on the snow and ice, no one said it could. I get that you're exaggerating, but it seems kind of pointless. Besides, what's wrong with engineering a vehicle that can handle higher speeds in poor conditions? That just means that when everyone else is pulled off on the side of the freeway putting on their chains during the winter you can keep going without any worries. I like knowing that.
4.) You said that fast cars are not supposed to be functional. Why not? That seems like a total reverse of what every car manufacturer has been working towards for the last 100 years. People want performance with function, they always have. What's wrong with wanting to be comfortable while you're going fast? You say it goes against sports car nature? No it doesn't, every sports car manufacturer has been working for ages on trying to make their cars roomier and more comfortable without sacrificing any performance. You can't tell me that sitting in a new Lambo feels exactly like sitting in an old one. The new one has way more space, with way more features, and is way more comfortable, and yet it's still faster than the old ones.
5.) As for cornering in high speeds, once again, why not? Its fun to corner at high speeds, it's also fun to outperform smaller sports cars in corners. And the nice thing about the Porsche is, is that unless I take a turn at 100+, if I corner too hard I wont flip over, I'll just skid out. The Porsche was engineered to not be top heavy; it has the lowest center of gravity out of any SUV. Combined with its lowest center of gravity, it also has one of the widest wheel bases (2nd to maybe a Hummer), allowing it to maintain traction and stability through corners. It can corner better than once again 90% of the cars you commonly see on the road. What's wrong with that? Safety while cornering and maneuvering in an SUV is a bad thing now?
6.) As for the having a Porsche, Ferrari, or Lambo and having to sacrifice functionality I somewhat disagree. They've all been working towards increasing functionality out of their cars. Lambo is coming out with an SUV and Ferrari has a 4 (or is it 5) seater.
7.) As for your car being physically designed to handle the power it's given, no it's not. Not any moreso than the Porsche. Your car couldn't handle a corner at extremely high speeds any better than the Porsche. And to be honest, I think the fact that the Porsche can take the kids to soccer, go offroading, drive in snow and ice, and then still go to the track and compete with most coupes is fricking amazing. That means I only need one car to do the same thing that you need 2 for. Not too mention the Porsche can do all of those things and still get better gas mileage than your coupe and your SUV.
8.) As for the car not being a sign of status but of conceit, who knows. People use their cars for all sorts of things. I admit that sometimes I like to show off in the Turbo by being able to burn people at lights and what not, but then other times I'm just glad I have a car that can carry all my stuff in it. I wouldn't say I'm conceited or that I use it as a symbol of status, I just use it.
To me, all of these things are excellent examples of top notch engineering and design, which is another thing Porsche has been bragging about since its creation. The Cayenne's ability to do all of these things is exactly what makes it a true Porsche. The Cayenne Turbo can outperform the Boxter and lower end 911's, does that mean that since the Cayenne isn't a true Porsche the Boxter and some 911's aren't true Porsches either?
I suppose there will never be anyway for anyone to convince you that the Cayenne is not completely pointless, just like there is probably no way anyone will ever convince me that it is pointless, but I will try just for the sake of trying.
1.) You said the Cayenne is a show off car. This is 100% true, but isn't every Porsche? I mean, isn't that kind of why you get a Porsche, to show off that your car can outperform anyone else?s? To say, even though I could have gotten the same car you have, I decided to spend a little extra to get something a little bit more individual and unique?
2.) You asked if anyone needs a car so powerful and yet so functional? I'm lost on this one, who doesn't want that? I know I want that. A car that seats 5, averages 17mpg (at least my turbo does), can hold all of my crap in the trunk without sacrificing anyone else?s space, and yet still be faster than 90% of the cars that you commonly see on the road. I think that is amazing, and I love that. That is engineering at its finest if you ask me.
3.) The Cayenne can't go 180mph on the snow and ice, no one said it could. I get that you're exaggerating, but it seems kind of pointless. Besides, what's wrong with engineering a vehicle that can handle higher speeds in poor conditions? That just means that when everyone else is pulled off on the side of the freeway putting on their chains during the winter you can keep going without any worries. I like knowing that.
4.) You said that fast cars are not supposed to be functional. Why not? That seems like a total reverse of what every car manufacturer has been working towards for the last 100 years. People want performance with function, they always have. What's wrong with wanting to be comfortable while you're going fast? You say it goes against sports car nature? No it doesn't, every sports car manufacturer has been working for ages on trying to make their cars roomier and more comfortable without sacrificing any performance. You can't tell me that sitting in a new Lambo feels exactly like sitting in an old one. The new one has way more space, with way more features, and is way more comfortable, and yet it's still faster than the old ones.
5.) As for cornering in high speeds, once again, why not? Its fun to corner at high speeds, it's also fun to outperform smaller sports cars in corners. And the nice thing about the Porsche is, is that unless I take a turn at 100+, if I corner too hard I wont flip over, I'll just skid out. The Porsche was engineered to not be top heavy; it has the lowest center of gravity out of any SUV. Combined with its lowest center of gravity, it also has one of the widest wheel bases (2nd to maybe a Hummer), allowing it to maintain traction and stability through corners. It can corner better than once again 90% of the cars you commonly see on the road. What's wrong with that? Safety while cornering and maneuvering in an SUV is a bad thing now?
6.) As for the having a Porsche, Ferrari, or Lambo and having to sacrifice functionality I somewhat disagree. They've all been working towards increasing functionality out of their cars. Lambo is coming out with an SUV and Ferrari has a 4 (or is it 5) seater.
7.) As for your car being physically designed to handle the power it's given, no it's not. Not any moreso than the Porsche. Your car couldn't handle a corner at extremely high speeds any better than the Porsche. And to be honest, I think the fact that the Porsche can take the kids to soccer, go offroading, drive in snow and ice, and then still go to the track and compete with most coupes is fricking amazing. That means I only need one car to do the same thing that you need 2 for. Not too mention the Porsche can do all of those things and still get better gas mileage than your coupe and your SUV.
8.) As for the car not being a sign of status but of conceit, who knows. People use their cars for all sorts of things. I admit that sometimes I like to show off in the Turbo by being able to burn people at lights and what not, but then other times I'm just glad I have a car that can carry all my stuff in it. I wouldn't say I'm conceited or that I use it as a symbol of status, I just use it.
To me, all of these things are excellent examples of top notch engineering and design, which is another thing Porsche has been bragging about since its creation. The Cayenne's ability to do all of these things is exactly what makes it a true Porsche. The Cayenne Turbo can outperform the Boxter and lower end 911's, does that mean that since the Cayenne isn't a true Porsche the Boxter and some 911's aren't true Porsches either?
1-i dont think a 911 is purley a show off car, true, many yuppies buy them for status, but for pure driving enthusiasts i believe it is a lifes work passion for such a performance machine, for me its as much about the history of Porsche, of the 911 line, of true German engineering and passion for driving...when i do get mine, it wont be to show off, it will be for what the car is made of and what its made to do
2 - Here's where we completely disagree, you dont make a functional SUV with the performance of a high end sports car, there is no point, why do you need to take 5 and all the 'crap' and be 90% faster than most sports cars? again , i just dont see it
3- ...thats the myth that leads to bad driving behavior and actually can affect those around you, the SUV is not a sports car, it cannot and should not be driven like a sports car, and it should not be driven faster in poor conditions because you belive that since Porsche built it that it can defy the Natural worlds Physics, it cannot,...and any SUV will decent all wheel drive will get you to the same place, just not as fast or as dangerous....
4 ...because in making the car fast, it has to have certain attributes to handle the speeds and the SUVs design precludes this possibility, it cannot corner like a sports car, it cannot react like a sports car, and at high speeds this is a recepie for disaster...i dont see Ferrari or Lambo making their cars more spacious or roomier or the 911 for that fact, they are the size that they are because that is the optimal size before performace is sacrificed...they may be SLIGHTLY bigger inside, but not 'way more' , get inside them and you'll know what i mean
5- You DO NOT corner high speed in a top heavy SUV, it is sure to create an accident at some point, any mistake in such a vehicle puts everyone around you at risk, if you want to corner fast, buy a sports car/coupe...Again, you only believe you can take a turn at 100 because of the name, not because of the facts...the PHYSICS of our world perclude this possiblity, it is just a very bad idea to corner in such a vehicle, are you doing this high speed cornering with 5 in the car and full of the 'crap' you speak of above?? that is crazy and dangerous for all our occupants, and if not, again, what is the point of the car(SUV)??? if you are alone then just get a sports car and do it all day...
6- No they have not, there is no more functionality to a 911 or F430 or Merc then there ever was in the past, they may be even more luxurious inside but no more space....Ferrari has the 612Scag which is a 2+2, but its a 2+2 like my 6er is a 2+2, just for names sake...and as for Lambo, they actually had a SUV long, long ago, the LM002 in the 70s-or 80s (forget), but that is only being revived because of the Cayenne and since VW owns Lambo, its again to compete in the US market...i hear even Bently is thinking of an SUV, imagine that crap :thumbsdown:
7- again, we just dont see eye to eye here, i just completely disagree
8- ...you just dont drag race in an SUV, its just silly, IMHO
..it just means that Porsche went for the hot market and knew they could sell these things to alot of americans, it does not make it a Porsche, again IMHO only
buy as many as you like, it does not affect me one bit, i just dont like it one bit and will never like it...to each his own....please dont take any offense, its not against you
09-25-2006, 01:56 PM
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m630, I'm not taking any of it personally, don't worry. I hope you're not either. But just to prove my point a little bit more. Here are some fun numbers:
2003 Porsche Cayenne Turbo:
0-60mph: 5.2 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.25 seconds at 102 mph
60-0mph Braking: 116 feet
Drag Coefficient: 0.39
490 Foot Slalom: 44.2 mph
Lateral Acceleration (200 foot skidpad): 0.81 g
Length/Width/Height (inches): 188.3/75.9/66.9
Wheelbase (inches): 112.4
Curb Weight: 5200 lbs
2005 BMW 645Ci:
0-60mph: 5.9 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.48 seconds at 98.2 mph
60-0mph Braking: 116 feet
Drag Coefficient: 0.31
490 Foot Slalom: 46.2 mph
Lateral Acceleration (200 foot skidpad): 0.89 g
Length/Width/Height (inches): 190.2/73/54.1
Wheelbase (inches): 109.4
Curb Weight: 3792 lbs
2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8:
0-60mph: 4.7 seconds
1/4 mile: 13.36 seconds at 102.5 mph
60-0mph Braking: 136 feet
490 Foot Slalom: 43.4 mph
Lateral Acceleration (200 foot skidpad): 0.87 g
Length/Width/Height (inches): 195.1/73.3/66.7
Wheelbase (inches): 109.5
Curb Weight: 4819 lbs
2003 Mercedes SL500:
490 Foot Slalom: 43.7 mph
2003 Ford SVT Cobra:
490 Foot Slalom: 43.8 mph
Apparently, the Turbo is no longer the top dog of the SUV market, the Jeep SRT8 is now the fastest SUV out there.
Either way, as you can see from the braking, slalom, and lateral acceleration numbers the Turbo and the SRT8 are right up there with your 645Ci. They also beat sports cars in the slalom like the Mercedes SL500 and SVT Cobra. They can obviously handle the road just like any coupe or sports car.
If you ask me, I'd say sports car owners are just getting jealous that their little two seaters can't compete as well as the used to against the big SUVs, which is why they knock on them considerably without ever testing them out.
And you can argue that your sports car still beats the SUVs in various fields, but those differences are so small that you can hardly argue that the SUV isn't safe. Unless you want to argue your sports car isn't safe either.
And I'm sorry, but your arguement about the SUVs not being able to defy physics seems really weak to me. They obviously can't defy physics, no one said they can. They've simply improved their design and engineering to handle different situations better. If you ask me I'd say that Porsche hasn't tried to defy any physics in designing the Cayenne, especially if it can handle the slalom, lateral acceleration, and braking almost identically to the 645Ci. The same goes for the new Jeep SRT8. No one is trying to cheat physics, it's simply better design and engineering.
2003 Porsche Cayenne Turbo:
0-60mph: 5.2 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.25 seconds at 102 mph
60-0mph Braking: 116 feet
Drag Coefficient: 0.39
490 Foot Slalom: 44.2 mph
Lateral Acceleration (200 foot skidpad): 0.81 g
Length/Width/Height (inches): 188.3/75.9/66.9
Wheelbase (inches): 112.4
Curb Weight: 5200 lbs
2005 BMW 645Ci:
0-60mph: 5.9 seconds
1/4 mile: 14.48 seconds at 98.2 mph
60-0mph Braking: 116 feet
Drag Coefficient: 0.31
490 Foot Slalom: 46.2 mph
Lateral Acceleration (200 foot skidpad): 0.89 g
Length/Width/Height (inches): 190.2/73/54.1
Wheelbase (inches): 109.4
Curb Weight: 3792 lbs
2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8:
0-60mph: 4.7 seconds
1/4 mile: 13.36 seconds at 102.5 mph
60-0mph Braking: 136 feet
490 Foot Slalom: 43.4 mph
Lateral Acceleration (200 foot skidpad): 0.87 g
Length/Width/Height (inches): 195.1/73.3/66.7
Wheelbase (inches): 109.5
Curb Weight: 4819 lbs
2003 Mercedes SL500:
490 Foot Slalom: 43.7 mph
2003 Ford SVT Cobra:
490 Foot Slalom: 43.8 mph
Apparently, the Turbo is no longer the top dog of the SUV market, the Jeep SRT8 is now the fastest SUV out there.
Either way, as you can see from the braking, slalom, and lateral acceleration numbers the Turbo and the SRT8 are right up there with your 645Ci. They also beat sports cars in the slalom like the Mercedes SL500 and SVT Cobra. They can obviously handle the road just like any coupe or sports car.
If you ask me, I'd say sports car owners are just getting jealous that their little two seaters can't compete as well as the used to against the big SUVs, which is why they knock on them considerably without ever testing them out.
And you can argue that your sports car still beats the SUVs in various fields, but those differences are so small that you can hardly argue that the SUV isn't safe. Unless you want to argue your sports car isn't safe either.
And I'm sorry, but your arguement about the SUVs not being able to defy physics seems really weak to me. They obviously can't defy physics, no one said they can. They've simply improved their design and engineering to handle different situations better. If you ask me I'd say that Porsche hasn't tried to defy any physics in designing the Cayenne, especially if it can handle the slalom, lateral acceleration, and braking almost identically to the 645Ci. The same goes for the new Jeep SRT8. No one is trying to cheat physics, it's simply better design and engineering.
09-25-2006, 04:00 PM
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no offense taken here, all in good debate fun... 
im way past the point of trying to compete on the street anymore, and trust me, everyone wants a piece of me or to see how they can match up, but im done with that....my last tix cost me 6 points alone (28mph over the speed limit
) so i've already had to change my drivin style, well at least for the next 2 years until i can get the points off!
im not saying that a sports car beats an SUV in anything anymore, im sure the Cayenne Turbo will whip most cars asses, it is a Porsche engine after all
But...here's my true problem with SUVs, they are too obstructive on the road in general for field of view. I absolutely HATE being anywhere behind one as it completely shuts down on the road view I have...i find it very dangerous for SUVs to be all over the place on the same roads that passanger cars are driving on...then you add on to the fact that many of the drivers of SUVs are driven by people who cant even see over the steering wheel, plus have a dark tinted rear window and are on the phone in the other hand, and its a real scary situation when any non SUV vehicle is in the same area...i do whatever i can to get away from SUVs on the highways and in any traffic situations, you just cant see whats going on any distance ahead to know if/when a dangerous situation or sudden stop is coming up...i could not care less about anything else other than this fact, but it is a serious fact ,and for any car that is not at the height of an SUV, it is a dangerous situation just waiting to happen....so i do hope they one day outlaw SUVs on main highways, but its surely for safety of the rest of the road
im way past the point of trying to compete on the street anymore, and trust me, everyone wants a piece of me or to see how they can match up, but im done with that....my last tix cost me 6 points alone (28mph over the speed limit
) so i've already had to change my drivin style, well at least for the next 2 years until i can get the points off! im not saying that a sports car beats an SUV in anything anymore, im sure the Cayenne Turbo will whip most cars asses, it is a Porsche engine after all
But...here's my true problem with SUVs, they are too obstructive on the road in general for field of view. I absolutely HATE being anywhere behind one as it completely shuts down on the road view I have...i find it very dangerous for SUVs to be all over the place on the same roads that passanger cars are driving on...then you add on to the fact that many of the drivers of SUVs are driven by people who cant even see over the steering wheel, plus have a dark tinted rear window and are on the phone in the other hand, and its a real scary situation when any non SUV vehicle is in the same area...i do whatever i can to get away from SUVs on the highways and in any traffic situations, you just cant see whats going on any distance ahead to know if/when a dangerous situation or sudden stop is coming up...i could not care less about anything else other than this fact, but it is a serious fact ,and for any car that is not at the height of an SUV, it is a dangerous situation just waiting to happen....so i do hope they one day outlaw SUVs on main highways, but its surely for safety of the rest of the road
09-25-2006, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by m630' post='338544' date='Sep 25 2006, 05:00 PM
no offense taken here, all in good debate fun...
im way past the point of trying to compete on the street anymore, and trust me, everyone wants a piece of me or to see how they can match up, but im done with that....my last tix cost me 6 points alone (28mph over the speed limit ) so i've already had to change my drivin style, well at least for the next 2 years until i can get the points off!
im not saying that a sports car beats an SUV in anything anymore, im sure the Cayenne Turbo will whip most cars asses, it is a Porsche engine after all
But...here's my true problem with SUVs, they are too obstructive on the road in general for field of view. I absolutely HATE being anywhere behind one as it completely shuts down on the road view I have...i find it very dangerous for SUVs to be all over the place on the same roads that passanger cars are driving on...then you add on to the fact that many of the drivers of SUVs are driven by people who cant even see over the steering wheel, plus have a dark tinted rear window and are on the phone in the other hand, and its a real scary situation when any non SUV vehicle is in the same area...i do whatever i can to get away from SUVs on the highways and in any traffic situations, you just cant see whats going on any distance ahead to know if/when a dangerous situation or sudden stop is coming up...i could not care less about anything else other than this fact, but it is a serious fact ,and for any car that is not at the height of an SUV, it is a dangerous situation just waiting to happen....so i do hope they one day outlaw SUVs on main highways, but its surely for safety of the rest of the road
im way past the point of trying to compete on the street anymore, and trust me, everyone wants a piece of me or to see how they can match up, but im done with that....my last tix cost me 6 points alone (28mph over the speed limit
) so i've already had to change my drivin style, well at least for the next 2 years until i can get the points off! im not saying that a sports car beats an SUV in anything anymore, im sure the Cayenne Turbo will whip most cars asses, it is a Porsche engine after all
But...here's my true problem with SUVs, they are too obstructive on the road in general for field of view. I absolutely HATE being anywhere behind one as it completely shuts down on the road view I have...i find it very dangerous for SUVs to be all over the place on the same roads that passanger cars are driving on...then you add on to the fact that many of the drivers of SUVs are driven by people who cant even see over the steering wheel, plus have a dark tinted rear window and are on the phone in the other hand, and its a real scary situation when any non SUV vehicle is in the same area...i do whatever i can to get away from SUVs on the highways and in any traffic situations, you just cant see whats going on any distance ahead to know if/when a dangerous situation or sudden stop is coming up...i could not care less about anything else other than this fact, but it is a serious fact ,and for any car that is not at the height of an SUV, it is a dangerous situation just waiting to happen....so i do hope they one day outlaw SUVs on main highways, but its surely for safety of the rest of the road
I agree about SUVs and trucks being obstructive, and to be honest, that's part of the reason why I got the Turbo, so that I could see the road. I know it's not helping the problem any, but I don't ever see SUVs going away so I figured I'd join them part of the time.
09-26-2006, 04:18 AM
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...yes, its all SUVs that i loathe, BMW et al....not at all picking on Porsche, just disappointed since they now add to my road anger!!!! i refuse to join the legions (though i have one available for the deep winter stuff 
), i luv being low to the ground!!!!! ...and super sexy of course 
), i luv being low to the ground!!!!! ...and super sexy of course
09-26-2006, 07:31 AM
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THis one certainly took a weird twist. I really liked the Cayenne from a performance standpoint, but both the wife and just couldn't really come to terms with the way it looks. It looks like a 996 C4 gone bad or something. I don't know, but it just wasn't going to work for her. She ended up with the V8 X5. We love that car. Heck most days I like driving it more than my 911. Driving my 911 in my city is more frustrating than anything. Too much traffic, bad roads, and little chance to open it up at all. Anyway, back to the original point I am really looking forward to the Panamera. By the time it arrives I will probably be in the market for a sedan like this.
09-26-2006, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by silver bullet' post='338775' date='Sep 26 2006, 11:31 AM
THis one certainly took a weird twist. .... Anyway, back to the original point I am really looking forward to the Panamera. By the time it arrives I will probably be in the market for a sedan like this.
09-28-2006, 06:05 AM
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My Ride: 545i; Manual Shifter
Originally Posted by m630' post='338544' date='Sep 25 2006, 05:00 PM
But...here's my true problem with SUVs, they are too obstructive on the road in general for field of view. I absolutely HATE being anywhere behind one as it completely shuts down on the road view I have...i find it very dangerous for SUVs to be all over the place on the same roads that passanger cars are driving on...then you add on to the fact that many of the drivers of SUVs are driven by people who cant even see over the steering wheel, plus have a dark tinted rear window and are on the phone in the other hand, and its a real scary situation when any non SUV vehicle is in the same area...i do whatever i can to get away from SUVs on the highways and in any traffic situations, you just cant see whats going on any distance ahead to know if/when a dangerous situation or sudden stop is coming up...i could not care less about anything else other than this fact, but it is a serious fact ,and for any car that is not at the height of an SUV, it is a dangerous situation just waiting to happen....so i do hope they one day outlaw SUVs on main highways, but its surely for safety of the rest of the road
If so, what does an SUV obstructing your view have to do with it?
Combining two functions (sport vs. room/comfort) into one vehicle? Well that's the secret formula auto manufacturers would kill to have. You seem to think this is a bad thing. You seem to think that people should go to either extreme instead of being able to have a combination of the two packaged into one vehicle.
I guarantee you that those 18-wheeler trucks will obstruct your view a lot more than any SUV...should we get rid of them too?
09-28-2006, 08:00 AM
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it is a bad thing, because by building SUVs like these that are allowed to drive on passenger car roads, it makes all cars less safe because they obstruct the view to all those around you...and here in NY, 18wheelers are not allowed on passanger car roads, only on specific roads for commercial traffic use
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