Gizmo

Now I think I know who penned the famous disclaimers on the back of the BMW brochure and on iDrive !!!

Enough of the circular arguements...

I'm a simple guy. As I see it, the E60 performed in a far less than stellar fashion on the original NCAP tests. For whatever reason, BMW rushed to make safety modifications to the vehicle. This perks-up the ears of BMW E60 owners and it should. If BMW does not explain the modifications and their reasons for them, I am suspect of their intentions and of the actual crash-worthiness of my car.

Thats about it!!!

kscarrol

I can't totally disagree w/ Gizmo on this, but frankly, until someone can quantify how the NCAP test is far superior to the testing done by the IIHS, I'm not losing any sleep over driving me or my family in my E60. And to agree w/ our Guest lawyer, until someone can quantify for me the the difference between three and four stars other than the obvious that it's better, I'll quite happily drive my car until the wheels fall off. Count me out of the pending class action lawsuit...

Guest

Instead of whining about your suspicions, you can act on your belief of the crash-worthiness of your car by selling it -- a simple action for a self admitted simple guy.

Neither BMW nor any other Euro manufacturer has any obligation to explain any modifications and their associated reasons to any purchaser at any time and none of them will.

In today's world, product manufacturers are constantly modifying and improving their products all the time -- they are in the business of selling products, not convincing suspicious purchasers of their motives by providing notices and explanations of their ongoing changes. If you don't trust them, don't buy their products -- if you have already bought the product and belief it is unsafe to use it, you should stop using it and sell it.

Gizmo

Now now anonymous friend!!! Youv'e attempted to disparage the NCAP testing folk instead of addressing their rather unflattering findings regarding the E60. And it would appear that your venom is not limited to those agencies which have shead light on the potential safety deficiencies of the E60, but is also directed at those who have justified reason for concern with these POOR results.

The modifications made by BMW were not the result of being on Blackwell's worst dressed list or because Joan Rivers trash talked the vehicle. It was in direct response to suboptimal safety ratings, pure and simple.

I believe the unmodified 2004 E60's may be less safe than later models. Others seem to have similar concerns. In an effort to clarify this issue, several longtime BMW customers and afficionados have made numerous contacts with BMW for additional information, however BMW appears to be at best dodging these individuals and at worst misleading them.

The manner in which you twist the safety concerns many have here, all the while turning a blind eye toward the manufacturer does brand you as a likely lawyer. For you and others I leave you then with some humor:

Q: If you are stranded on a desert island with Adolph Hitler, Atilla the Hun, and a lawyer, and you have a gun with only two bullets, what do you do?
A: Shoot the lawyer twice.

Q: Why is going to a meeting of the Bar Association like going into a bait shop?
A: Because of the abundance of suckers, leeches, maggots and nightcrawlers

Q: Why are there so many lawyers in the U.S.?
A: Because St. Patrick chased the snakes out of Ireland.

Guest

Please try to be honest -- I have not disparaged NCAP in any way; instead, I have invited them to publish their actual test results/measurements, just like the IIHS does in the US. In addition, I have not turned a "blind eye" towards BMW in this affair -- BMW has done nothing wrong or illegal here; although you and others are frustrated that BMW will not acquiesce to your hysterical demands for information and explanations, this does not make BMW "evil" or a wrongdoer because, among other things, you don't obtain the right to run BMW or to make demands of BMW by purchasing an e60 and no other manufacturer that sells cars worldwide would provide such explanations or information.

While you may have a legitimate belief that the 2004 e60 is less safe than later models, you have cited no actual NCAP measurements for this belief -- instead, you rely only upon what appears to be a subjective rating (which is apparently disputed by BMW) issued by NCAP.

Further, you do not attempt in any way to understand or explain what appears to be contradictory findings by the IIHS in the US and NCAP in Europe as to the safety of the e60 (admittedly, this is difficult since no one appears to have the actual NCAP measurements for comparison).

Instead, you immediately jump to conclusions that (i) because you have purchased an e60, BMW now has some kind of duty or obligation to you and other purchasers to provide explanations and additional information when you demand them; and (ii) if BMW does not provide such explanation and additional information, they must be hiding something "bad" from you and misleading you.

Although it is clear and obvious to me that your conclusions are erroneous, if you assume them to be true, then you should not be doing business with a "misleading" company like BMW and you should not be driving a less safe 2004 e60 -- unfortunately, it would be dishonest for you to try to "gloss over" this point with attempted humor as you have tried to do.

At least you are not as overbearing, malicious and opportunistic as some others who would have BMW recall/retrofit or buy back their 2004 e60s -- no company would be in business very long if it were run in this ridiculous, unreasonable and unprofitable manner (no, I don't work for BMW, but I do have a vested interest in their continuing profitability so that they can support/service my 2004 e60; as per kscarrol, I will not be joining any class action strike suits against BMW as the e60 is among the safest cars I have ever owned and driven).

Gizmo

You have indeed intimated that NCAP results are suspect based on the premise that they have not fully disclosed to you all their internal data. Furthermore you raised questions regarding the implications of the rating system itself. THe NCAP website has plenty of details regarding their methodology.

Funny how you insist NCAP disclose information, then turn around and defend staunchly BMW's right to provide no information despite repetitive inquiry and leave consumers in the dark regarding important safety issues. You have "invited" NCAP to publish its data, and I have "invited" BMW to disclose its internal testing data proving that NCAP results were flawed and inaccurate.

So far, I would say NCAP has been more revealing than BMW. In addition, BMW's actions based on NCAP data would suggest that they agreed with NCAP findings. After all, if the original vehicle was so safe as demonstrated by much internal and laborious testing, why would BMW redesign and resubmit it for testing??? Are you telling us that BMW would redesign a vehicle purely because some rogue group said its safety attributes were less than optimal, and that this might in turn negatively effect sales??? Were this true, the E60 headlight design might have been first on the chopping block, as it caused much more negative press than NCAP ever will.

We will likely never get disclosure from BMW as you suggest and will have to wait and see if this becomes a liability issue in the courts.

Guest

The NCAP methodologies are not in question (although the UK article suggests there may have been some problems with sensor location). In any event, to the extent they are published as you suggest, one can evaluate them. However, you continue to intentionally overlook the failure of NCAP to actually publish its test results for the e60. IIHS publishes its data for all cars tested, but why does NCAP refuse to publish its data?? This raises the NCAP credibility issues that are not present for IIHS.

More importantly, you also intentionally overlook the fact that NCAP and BMW are NOT interchangeable in this analysis. NCAP is not an auto manufacturer, but a testing outfit, just like IIHS. At least a part of NCAP's business is to test the safety of automobiles, for which they are paid or subsidized by gov't. In any event, if it is NCAP's business to test these vehicles, why doesn't NCAP publish the test results they are paid for?? IIHS does not have any problem doing so.

BMW is an auto manufacturer and you have not explained why you or any other purchaser is entitled to any production, testing, or design information from BMW or any other auto manufacturer, for that matter.

Lastly, your reasoning re: what you consider to be poor, sub-optimal NCAP ratings for the e60 is flawed and fallacious. First of all, NCAP is not a "rogue group," but even if it were, the NCAP safety ratings do influence sales of the vehicle. More importantly, BMW's considerations in responding to these NCAP ratings are not solely based on sales (per your argument), but are also based on a much larger degree on the possibility of liability in connection with these NCAP ratings. As is made clear in this posting thread (and the older one), some 2004 e60 owners are considering class action lawsuits against BMW. Further, in the event of some type of injury, you can rest assured that an ambulance chasing lawyer will use the NCAP ratings as a means to get some kind of settlement from BMW or large verdict against BMW from a jury (and either the class action settlement or the jury verdict can severely impact the financial health of BMW in a much more severe manner than merely lost sales of e60).

BMW can suffer in several ways from the alleged sub-optimal NCAP ratings (lost sales, class action lawsuits, liability verdicts, etc.), some of which can severely impact and disrupt its business. On the other hand, the negative press from a disliked headlight design aesthetic can only impact sales of the e60 and will not bankrupt the company. Thus, there is no equivalence between the NCAP ratings and the disliked aesthetics of the headlight design as you argue.

BMW has made a reasonable and prudent business judgment that the cost of addressing disputed NCAP results is less than the cost of making no changes and proceeding with a dispute/litigation against NCAP re: the disputed ratings. The fact that BMW has made this business judgment does not entitle you or any other purchaser to make demands of the company for its internal production, design, testing or other information.

BMW RULES

The most sucky is that an e60 before safety update only have 3-stars...

zippers525

I think that guy works for BMW. Lomag, do the i.p.'s match?

Gizmo

Yeah, what he said !!!