NCAP Testing Modifications
12-15-2004, 10:21 AM
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I understand completely Robg. This is a thorny issue that is of great importance for many, while for many others, it is less of an issue. You saw the debate on the older thread. Got rather heated at some points. I too would hope BMW would stand up and openly give the information on the first test and the subsequent modifications, but I am not optimistic about that happening. And I am also not optimistic about any sort legal remedy from BMW. Be sure and let us know when you get the same line of BS from your source.
Ken
Ken
12-15-2004, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by robg' date='Dec 15 2004, 07:05 PM
IrishEyes -
I did not intend this thread to be a discussion of the merits of the testing , the differences between a 4 or 5 star rating, etc.? That has been discussed at lenght in another thread.
Rather, NCAP reported that BMW made modifications.? Many have tried to get detailed information as to what the modification were, so that there could be? an informed decision as to whether the modification were significant and whether those of us with pre-mofdification cars should be concerned.
The point is, to date, BMW has refused to provide any info.
I did not intend this thread to be a discussion of the merits of the testing , the differences between a 4 or 5 star rating, etc.? That has been discussed at lenght in another thread.
Rather, NCAP reported that BMW made modifications.? Many have tried to get detailed information as to what the modification were, so that there could be? an informed decision as to whether the modification were significant and whether those of us with pre-mofdification cars should be concerned.
The point is, to date, BMW has refused to provide any info.
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Forgive me if I seem to be re-iterating stuff from other threads, but I'm a relative newbie to this forum. I haven't seen these items in other threads. And thats possibly because I haven't searched long or hard enough. I'm sure other newbies are in the same situation and they'd like to know whats going down as well.
I was just responding to a particular posting and all that I was trying to suggest is that the response should be measured and in keeping with the problem. Unfortunately, no-one seems to know how big the original problem is because of the (lack of) response from BMW. However, there were other posts stating what changes were made and maybe thats as far as BMW will go. Talk to the press but not individuals.
Maybe when everyone has inputted their feelings on the forum, thats the time for everyone to approach their local BMW reps armed with the information to help illicit an appropriate response from BMW.
12-15-2004, 12:24 PM
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BMW Netherlands still hasn't called me back on this. I'm really dissapointed. This is the second time they don't call me when I have a problem with them.
That's also a way to deal with your clients. Just don't call them back and they will go away.. :'(
That's also a way to deal with your clients. Just don't call them back and they will go away.. :'(
12-26-2004, 08:22 PM
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Regarding the specific mods to achieve better crash ratings:
"BMW modified the steering column, footrest, door trims, door latch, airbags and electronic software and, by mutual agreement with the Euro NCAP authorities, retested the car, achieving four stars for crashworthiness."
[from the link in this thread to the Daily Telegraph article].
"BMW modified the steering column, footrest, door trims, door latch, airbags and electronic software and, by mutual agreement with the Euro NCAP authorities, retested the car, achieving four stars for crashworthiness."
[from the link in this thread to the Daily Telegraph article].
01-18-2005, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by oreo' date='Jan 18 2005, 11:04 PM
Has anyone heard any more from BMW on this issue since the end of December, or are they waiting for the storm to blow by?
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I think they put this on their Highest Priority list, right behind functional Bluetooth for over half of the 2004 model year E60's !!!
What you're seeing here is a blow by and blow you off corporate policy in action ...
01-18-2005, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Iceman' date='Dec 15 2004, 12:14 PM
BMW is selling cars in all countrys, so they have to meet different safety standards. That's why they pick the highest, and that is the US, where they have the best rating. That is a test in higher speed, more realistic, what increases the strain on the passengers in low speed accidents...
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As for the Euro NCAP testing, it appears that the only "facts" that have been publicly admitted by BMW are as set forth in the UK article. Based on that information, it appears to me as a disinterested, non-Euro observer that NCAP is struggling to maintain its credibility and legitimacy in the dispute and BMW is struggling to maintain a "marketing spin" re: the safety of the e60 in view of the NCAP results (which BMW admits are not up to its own expectations).
In the end, no one has yet been able to quantitatively and conclusively establish and define the difference between a 4 star and 5 star NCAP rating -- thus, it appears that the dispute centers on the qualitative (i.e., marketing) perception of what may be a meaningless distinction since one cannot conclusively quantify how much safer a 5 star rated NCAP car is as compared to a 4 star rated NCAP car.
Moreover, many of the responses in this forum to this NCAP issue have become increasingly emotional and less rational. To the extent that certain e60 owners feel that they are driving unsafe cars due to inherent design flaws as exposed by the NCAP testing, then such owners should IMMEDIATELY sell their cars and buy a 5 star rated vehicle ==> it is not worth the risk of loss of life or limb to be driving an unsafe vehicle.
However, if the only real "injury" here is the perceived economic/marketing harm from driving a less than 5 star NCAP rated vehicle, then you may put your money where your mouth is and pursue litigation against BMW to pay you damages for this economic harm (good luck with this -- although Euro laws may be different than those in the US, there does not appear to be any harm suffered by anyone as a result of the changes made by BMW, for whatever reasons, to improve NCAP ratings; even if there were an accident and someone suffered loss of life/limb, you would have to prove that such loss was due to the BMW design defects and would have been prevented by the design changes -- a very tall order since it is most likely that driver error, speeding, violation of traffic laws, weather conditions, etc. was the primary overwhelming cause of any loss of life/limb and no automobile design, whether by BMW, Volvo, MB, etc. would have been able to prevent such loss).
01-19-2005, 12:17 AM
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Well,
A very good response to a dissapointing issue. BMW have clearly acknowledged design defects by changing them in light of the results! To prove that the injury could have been reduced by having had the modifications would be a difficult task and hence why BMW will do nothing about it. The same issue arose with Ford and their cruise control problem. It was cheaper to defend the claims than recall all the cars and modify them. An acceptable risk? I purchased our E61 for my wife and 3 children because it would be safe, ?44000 and they would be better off in a Ford Mondeo for ?12000. This is not the kind of treatment I would have expected from BMW, but money is king so what can I expect? The E61 is going and I will never buy another BMW and make sure none of my friends or family do. Hello MB and lets hope for better treatment from them!
A very good response to a dissapointing issue. BMW have clearly acknowledged design defects by changing them in light of the results! To prove that the injury could have been reduced by having had the modifications would be a difficult task and hence why BMW will do nothing about it. The same issue arose with Ford and their cruise control problem. It was cheaper to defend the claims than recall all the cars and modify them. An acceptable risk? I purchased our E61 for my wife and 3 children because it would be safe, ?44000 and they would be better off in a Ford Mondeo for ?12000. This is not the kind of treatment I would have expected from BMW, but money is king so what can I expect? The E61 is going and I will never buy another BMW and make sure none of my friends or family do. Hello MB and lets hope for better treatment from them!
01-19-2005, 12:19 AM
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Sorry the above post was from me.
Cheers Paul
Cheers Paul
01-19-2005, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Guest' date='Jan 19 2005, 01:47 AM
As a US purchaser, I am satisfied that the e60 (original 2004 design) is a safe vehicle based up on the IIHS testing and "best rating" here in the US.
Purely subjective speculation on your part. Interesting how some will conveniently overlook evidence of poor performance when they have something more flattering to cling to.?
As for the Euro NCAP testing, it appears that the only "facts" that have been publicly admitted by BMW are as set forth in the UK article.? Based on that information, it appears to me as a disinterested, non-Euro observer that NCAP is struggling to maintain its credibility and legitimacy in the dispute and BMW is struggling to maintain a "marketing spin" re: the safety of the e60 in view of the NCAP results (which BMW admits are not up to its own expectations).
Sure! First lets try to overlook the NCAP data, and now lets try to defame it!
In the end, no one has yet been able to quantitatively and conclusively establish and define the difference between a 4 star and 5 star NCAP rating -- thus, it appears that the dispute centers on the qualitative (i.e., marketing) perception of what may be a meaningless distinction since one cannot conclusively quantify how much safer a 5 star rated NCAP car is as compared to a 4 star rated NCAP car.
Uh, I think you forgot that the unmodified 2004 E60 garnered a hefty 3 points before BMW took the vehicle back for redesign.
Moreover, many of the responses in this forum to this NCAP issue have become increasingly emotional and less rational.? To the extent that certain e60 owners feel that they are driving unsafe cars due to inherent design flaws as exposed by the NCAP testing, then such owners should IMMEDIATELY sell their cars and buy a 5 star rated vehicle ==> it is not worth the risk of loss of life or limb to be driving an unsafe vehicle.
Define rational. Sounds like we are in some agreement here. The remedy is where we differ. As BMW was the one to produce the vehicle with a poor NCAP safety testing record (which made them redesign the vehicle), should it not be BMW who fixes the deficiencies or buys back the vehicle rather than having unsuspecting customers shoulder all the burden?
However, if the only real "injury" here is the perceived economic/marketing harm from driving a less than 5 star NCAP rated vehicle, then you may put your money where your mouth is and pursue litigation against BMW to pay you damages for this economic harm (good luck with this -- although Euro laws may be different than those in the US, there does not appear to be any harm suffered by anyone as a result of the changes made by BMW, for whatever reasons, to improve NCAP ratings; even if there were an accident and someone suffered loss of life/limb, you would have to prove that such loss was due to the BMW design defects and would have been prevented by the design changes -- a very tall order since it is most likely that driver error, speeding, violation of traffic laws, weather conditions, etc. was the primary overwhelming cause of any loss of life/limb and no automobile design, whether by BMW, Volvo, MB, etc. would have been able to prevent such loss).
Simply wrong. There are any number of reasons why an accident occurs, that is not the point. The point is that a 2004 E60 passenger is more likely to sustain greater bodily injury than a 2005 E60 driver in some accidents. Were talking about civil litigation not criminal court here. In some events, a case can likely be made that BMW is partly responsible for the degree of injury suffered by a passenger in its vehicle. There is no doubt that BMW had NCAP safety ratings that it found unacceptable. Based on NCAP data they redesigned their vehicle. Period.
Purely subjective speculation on your part. Interesting how some will conveniently overlook evidence of poor performance when they have something more flattering to cling to.?
As for the Euro NCAP testing, it appears that the only "facts" that have been publicly admitted by BMW are as set forth in the UK article.? Based on that information, it appears to me as a disinterested, non-Euro observer that NCAP is struggling to maintain its credibility and legitimacy in the dispute and BMW is struggling to maintain a "marketing spin" re: the safety of the e60 in view of the NCAP results (which BMW admits are not up to its own expectations).
Sure! First lets try to overlook the NCAP data, and now lets try to defame it!
In the end, no one has yet been able to quantitatively and conclusively establish and define the difference between a 4 star and 5 star NCAP rating -- thus, it appears that the dispute centers on the qualitative (i.e., marketing) perception of what may be a meaningless distinction since one cannot conclusively quantify how much safer a 5 star rated NCAP car is as compared to a 4 star rated NCAP car.
Uh, I think you forgot that the unmodified 2004 E60 garnered a hefty 3 points before BMW took the vehicle back for redesign.
Moreover, many of the responses in this forum to this NCAP issue have become increasingly emotional and less rational.? To the extent that certain e60 owners feel that they are driving unsafe cars due to inherent design flaws as exposed by the NCAP testing, then such owners should IMMEDIATELY sell their cars and buy a 5 star rated vehicle ==> it is not worth the risk of loss of life or limb to be driving an unsafe vehicle.
Define rational. Sounds like we are in some agreement here. The remedy is where we differ. As BMW was the one to produce the vehicle with a poor NCAP safety testing record (which made them redesign the vehicle), should it not be BMW who fixes the deficiencies or buys back the vehicle rather than having unsuspecting customers shoulder all the burden?
However, if the only real "injury" here is the perceived economic/marketing harm from driving a less than 5 star NCAP rated vehicle, then you may put your money where your mouth is and pursue litigation against BMW to pay you damages for this economic harm (good luck with this -- although Euro laws may be different than those in the US, there does not appear to be any harm suffered by anyone as a result of the changes made by BMW, for whatever reasons, to improve NCAP ratings; even if there were an accident and someone suffered loss of life/limb, you would have to prove that such loss was due to the BMW design defects and would have been prevented by the design changes -- a very tall order since it is most likely that driver error, speeding, violation of traffic laws, weather conditions, etc. was the primary overwhelming cause of any loss of life/limb and no automobile design, whether by BMW, Volvo, MB, etc. would have been able to prevent such loss).
Simply wrong. There are any number of reasons why an accident occurs, that is not the point. The point is that a 2004 E60 passenger is more likely to sustain greater bodily injury than a 2005 E60 driver in some accidents. Were talking about civil litigation not criminal court here. In some events, a case can likely be made that BMW is partly responsible for the degree of injury suffered by a passenger in its vehicle. There is no doubt that BMW had NCAP safety ratings that it found unacceptable. Based on NCAP data they redesigned their vehicle. Period.
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