robg

The Euro NCAP testing, subsequent modifications, and retesting have been discussed in many threads. And many of us have attempted to get information from BMW - more specific than provided by NCAP - reagrding exacttly what modifications were made.

Has anyone gotten a satisfactory answer?

northernmonkey

Daily Telegraph UK

that is a link to the BMW Vs EURO NCAP sh*t storm that these tests have whipped up.

It seems to me that BMW are backing into a corner slightly and I think come resale time we all better hope that dealers or buyers don't ask the question "so is this a safety modified car or not????"

I still say recall is the only way to put this issue to sleep once and for all but it seems like that will not be happening.

BangleBox_530d

Sounds like 2005 models are OK. Fingers crossed.

oreo

Last week I was contacted by an official BMW representative from the head office in Sweden. My conclusion from this talk was that their viewpoint on this is that the E60 is a very safe car and the "poor" rating in the EURO-NCAP test (both pre and post mod) were due to

i) a very stiff passenger cell needed to protect the passengers in high speed accidents. This increases the strain on the passengers in low speed accidents but protects them better in high speed accidents

and

ii) several points were lost "by an inch" in the EURO-NCAP test. According to the rep, the BMW and EURO-NCAP engineers disagreed about the classification of some results from the test and several of the mods were minor and made only to satisfy the test without increasing the safety in practise.

My reply was basically that I do not find this question resolved until BMW either:

i) report the complete results from the first EURO-NCAP test with their comments on where they disagreed with the EURO-NCAP engineers about the classification. If they do this it is easier for us to make up our own mind about the safety of the car and if the faults that were penalised by EURO-NCAP are important to our feeling of safety when driving the car. The poor availability of information only leaves room for speculation which is not good for the confidence in the car or the resale value of pre-mod cars.

or

ii) recall the car and make the modifications that were later done in the production to get the four EURO-NCAP stars.

I hope that these comments will reach the HQ where they are able to decide on an appropriate action to resolve this issue once and for all!

Iceman

So they told you the BS they told me.
But I got some more BS from them, such as, BMW is testing the cars themselves, and they do tests EuroNCAP is not doing, such as pole tests... Well, EuroNCAP IS doing such pole test... Also the EuroNCAP accident simulation applies for only one accident out of one thousand accidents... Well, if I'm in this one out of thousand I am trouble, so EuroNCAP is a worst case scenario testing to me...
BMW is selling cars in all countrys, so they have to meet different safety standards. That's why they pick the highest, and that is the US, where they have the best rating. That is a test in higher speed, more realistic, what increases the strain on the passengers in low speed accidents...
I have asked why they modified the car then, if they don't care about EuroNCAP... To get a better rating... Well, for what? Because everybody does...
Another fantastic lie was, that NO car tested through EuroNCAP was only tested once. ALL cars are tested several times... And EuroNCAP is making the decission on how often they allow it... The Renault (that is not sold in the US, therefore needs to get the best rating in the EuroNCAP test, as it is the highest safety level for Renault...) had 9 retests before it had five stars... And even AUDI is not making it without retest... ALL LIES!
Finally the guy in Munich told me, that I can't buy any car any time, since every car gets better and better and they improve it. So whenever you buy a car, in about half a year a new car is having a higher standard... Great BS, because we are talking about modifications on the safety structure, not on modofications in the interior, such as extended wood trim or new gadgets, and those changes are unusual). Anyways, after 1.5 hrs on the phone the dude agreed, that if I see it this way, my car only has three stars, but is not an unsafe car and they will not do anything about it.
The thing with the stars is another good story... The 5series didn't received three stars, it's a four star car! I told him, that this only applies for cars built after the mods... No, since the ONLY official result is the four star result! So all E60's are four star cars... (Do I really need to talk to A$$holes like that?)...
The guy who placed the rumours about the bad result in the EURONCAP test was somebody at the EuroNCAP. That was illegal.
Well, if this dude did it, he seems to be really concerned about the miserable result the E60 got...

BMW does not have the results of the first test. How did they know what to improve? Well, they have been told that there are some problems in those sections (airbags, software, door trim, door latches, footwells, steering coloumn and front) and they then modified the car, just to get a better rating...

So, here is the short version:

All E60's are four star EuroNCAP cars
BMW has modified the structure to get a better rating in a test they don't agree with
All cars ever tested at EuroNCAP were retested
EuroNCAP is unrealistic
No recall to come


I will give it one last try and write a letter to those freaks in Munich.
In January I will go to my lawyer then, if they BS me again like that.

IrishEyes

Firstly, I don't think I'd get over-worked to the point of pursueing it through legal channels. BMW, or any manufacturer for that matter, will always come out with the propaganda to denegrate the NCAP when it goes wrong for them and advertise it from the highest billboards when it goes right. If it had been a 1* I definitely would have rammed the car up someones a$$hole.

I reckon no matter what BMW say now, they will never appease everyone even though what they say could be the truth and nothing but the truth. I suppose that it is also plausable that the NCAP tests are not 100% real world crash scenarios and manufacturers who design cars specifically to get a 5* could loose out in other situations in the real world. It would probably be a very brave manufacturer to design for the real world and get a low * value in NCAP because of the media impact and reporting.

At this stage, the official rating for the E60 is 4*. Realistically, the general populace couldn't explain or describe the differences of the results between 4* and 5* and what the likely effect on a person in a crash would be. It will be hard for BMW to come up with a concise explaination for all indicating how the E60 fared in internal development crash testing. The 1-series got 5* so did they take different appraoch to safety when designing that car?. I'm somewhat disappointed that it only achieved 4* but will consider at next purchase time whether the 4* is a go or no-go purchase if I decide on another E60, or another BMW or whatever. If the feelings are so high in this regard, maybe its time to vote with the pocket and go to another safer manufacturer. And let BMW know.

If I'm in the unfortunate position of having a crash, it'll probably be in to a 3-ton concrete block in the Euro NCAP test centre.

robg

IrishEyes -

I did not intend this thread to be a discussion of the merits of the testing , the differences between a 4 or 5 star rating, etc. That has been discussed at lenght in another thread.

Rather, NCAP reported that BMW made modifications. Many have tried to get detailed information as to what the modification were, so that there could be an informed decision as to whether the modification were significant and whether those of us with pre-mofdification cars should be concerned.

The point is, to date, BMW has refused to provide any info.

DaveR

I totally understand the frustration with BMW not releasing the details, but I found this interesting, that this isn't the first time this happened. E39 had similar issues, and had to be retested after modifications. Cars MY98 and on had fairly large changes. I wonder how BMW handled the PR back then, as internet boards weren't nearly as widespread.

Thanks,
Dave

kscarrol

Robg, this was also discussed at great length in that same thread. I suggest that rather than spending our efforts writing on this board about it, we direct our energies at BMW instead. It may be a futile effort given the way BMW acted w/ the E39 modifications, but at least we'd be venting at the right people and not each other.

robg

Robg, this was also discussed at great length in that same thread. I suggest that rather than spending our efforts writing on this board about it, we direct our energies at BMW instead. It may be a futile effort given the way BMW acted w/ the E39 modifications, but at least we'd be venting at the right people and not each other.
[/quote]


I know - I was really just trying to get an update on everyone's efforst. The last thread got so long it was difficult to figure out if anyone had any success.

As for efforst w/ BMW, I tried going through the sales manager, who said he would ask his feild rep/engineer. I hoped this would avoid the rhetoric and get a real answer. Just got back an email from the sales manager who said " I spoke with my area rep today with regard to your email. He fwd copy of same to BMW NA product safety/product liability. We would like the answers to come from BMW Engineering directly so that we are getting accurate and up to date information."

I think this means my answer will be the same BS.