nickolas_g

Sleepycat I thought you were a doctor that was smarter than all of us combined here?

s4iscool

i remember seeing this as well, I dont think the 5 was tested, and there was an inset explaining why it wasnt. I still prefer a slalom run over a skidpad figure as well.

redwhiteblue

The 5 was not tested because when it arrived to their test facility from bmw it had a sticker of like 20k over the other 2 and they wanted to keep the price being tested consistent.

They did say in a couple months they would put the 535 up against the winner which I cannot even remember right now.

It was funny in 3 hours I must have read 30 articles or so and I believe the overall trend was the new cts is a nice car, handles better than other caddies have etc but still lacks compared to the euros-

But then it is motor trends car of the year this year-and I know that is not based on performance within a class but still confusing now I cannot remember which articles say what about the cts-I believe the cts won in this battle but gosh I cannot remmeber-

Funny though I remmeber the tiny box about the 5er word for word

What does this have to do with being smart? I am not smarter than the next guy-nor does remembering a page number equate to smartness. Actually I have way below average photographic memory. I have to read through things like 10 times to remember things really well.

I am in the U.S and like all you other successful people here on the board-I am sure all of you worked hard to get where you are at-I am sure many of you are very smart too but america is all about rewarding hard work and motivation and truly I am in the meat of the intelligence curve as most of you OFTEN point out-but hey I sacrificed, spent the time and worked hard to achieve a goal-THAT Is america.

In india or many other countries that predestine careers in jr high or HS-I would be moppin floors believe me. I had to retake the SAT and still got like an 1100 which is WAY below average of most professionals in this country. But atleast in my career hard work trumps smarts to make it to the top unless you are in a research field-I will not be discovering the cure to cancer or coming up with the explanation to some disease-I leave that to the TRUE super high IQ people.

Id rather be playing golf and driving cars all day long than working that is FOR SORE

swajames

It is on page 86 of the December issue of Road & Track. It is mentioned in a CTS vs G35 Sport test, the 535i was not included in the test but in a boxout on page 86 they explain why it wasn't and provide some editorial on the 535i itself.

The quote is "the 535i tracks far better than you'd expect in turns...not surprising that it laps the skidpad at 0.91g, better than a Porsche Cayman."

Both their data and the implied handling advantage is wrong, in fact R&T themselves had previously tested the Cayman at .96g and the Cayman is not likely to lose to an E60 in a handling test, but the quote is pretty much as the original poster said it was.

redwhiteblue

ah ha that is the one I could not think of as the third biggie road and track. Am I wrong or are not these considered the "big three" car mags heree in hte US?

Carndriver, road and track and motorweek? I thought so.

I dont know after further investigation of g testing I was a bit surprised just how much difference the set of tires you had on the car made-so Iknow you need an objective number and its a good test but comparing different cars with completely different sets of rubber seem a bit apples to oranges. I mean even between 2 performance summer tires there could probably be .86-.96 variation simply based on the tire use.

I think the fact it is worth mentioning, even though it is very likely not as grippy as a cayman, says something about the handling of a big sedan.

Richard in NC

I too read the article at a magazine stand. Its great to see the respect the 5 series deserves but that's stretching the truth a bit.

Good handling is a lot more than just grip. You also need balance, road feel, quick steering, and the ability to handle bumps, etc.
For example, what good is 1g grip on a skid pad if the first thing it does if you try to exceed 1g is spin the back end out? A car needs balanced handling, and good feel at the limit. Also, on a curvy road, auto cross, or tight race course, a car has to transistion from left to right, etc. Grip will not help there, but balance, quick steering, and a well sorted suspension do.

The BMW 5 series is among the best handling sedans built, PERIOD. Most others in that category are BMWs as well
Unfortunately, one can't over rule the laws of physics, and smaller lighter cars are usually overall better handling, especially purpose built sports cars like the Cayman.

For example of handling differences, I just traded an '06 650i for the '08 550i. For two cars of similar size and weight, both with excellent handling, their characteristics couldn't be more different! The 650i had a lower center of gravity, firm suspension, and the extra firm sidewalls of the RFTs. On a constant turn, the 650i would grip tenaciously and then at the limit, skitter out of line in a 4 wheel drift. The 550i seems to achieve the same level of grip but the front tires roll into understeer at steady state. One must accelerate through a curve to balance it. But the 550i is MUCH more comfortable as a daily driver and is worth the slight trade off of minimal understeer and slightly softer S curve transistions. Back on the plus side, I can also feel what the 550i is doing better at the limit.

redwhiteblue

I have to disagree a bit here and I have no physics beyond college general physics but for lack of better ways to say what I am trying to say some physics terms will likely come out-not trying to sound intilligent and if any true physicists out there are here that would help.

But first moving left to right in a slalom or a road/race track definetly is very proportional to a cars lateral g forces its able to produce which is essentially called "grip" here and in most articles. It is how much can a car hang on in one direction before the car gives way in a overysimple sense. So when you are going constantly diferent directions-the more force you can turn one direction into and stay stable (a high lateral g force) means the more force you can go back in the other direction to either get out of a corner or turn in the other direction. This is silly just saying this and NOT a true applications of newtons law but a simpeltons way to say it-which I am-is for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

So if there is a larger force in one direction that is sustained by a car with good "grip" when the car goes the other direction opposite to it-the more force it will have to do it.

Now there are an insane amount of phsyics features at work here with a car and I wont even begin to guess-but everything boils down to one force-which is friction-the so called "grip". Friction is a reactive force meaning if friction is high-a high force in the opposite direction had to be there.

So a car with a high lateral g force of say 1g-means friction force working perpendicular to those tires slipping is 1g. That also means the car itself was responsible for this was also applying 1g of force towards "the outside of the circle".

To make a long-mostly wrong application of physics story short-If a car can throw a G of force into a curve and not slip-that means a tighter turn around a corner-which improve times on any track or slalom. And it goes both ways if you can throw a G into a corner one way, and the next turn is an immediate turn the other way-then you can throw a G back and stay in a much tighter radius than a car not capable of that-

So although skidpads are not the end all-making a couple assumptions, it is genereally a could measure of cornering, shifting a cars weight back and forth and maneuverability.

Examples.

Crappy sway bars and tons of body roll will take away from lateral g forces sustained-how the forces at work here all are calculated are WAY beyond my brain but conceptually you are screwing up the forces at work to keep the car planted by having excessive up/down body roll forces. This goes with all suspension pieces-all of them are tightened and stiff and tuned to maximize the desired forces of the car in the desired direction and not bouncing up down in a multitude of angles.

Anyway-bad explanation-in short- g forces are a good measure of everything you listed but does not capture the feeling a car would have. You can attain the same g forces with many different setups and all will feel differently-Its just one measure but one of the best all around measures to make.

By the way-how in the heck are you pushing your car into understeer? The e60s are pretty darn hard to understeer.

Richard in NC

I guess my point is I'd rather have an M3 on cheap all season tires than a Buick on R Comps even if it could pull more Gs. I doubt it could pull more Gs since the Buick suspension just isn't designed for performance driving and THAT is my point. It takes more than grip to make a great handling car.

I frequent an Interstate interchange where there is a long 270 degree on ramp. I've used it as a handling test of at least 10 cars I've owned and many rentals over the years. In it, the 550i transistions to slight understeer and the front tires squeal first but I can accelerate slightly and hold it several more MPH. At the end is a bumpy section before the merge. The 550i handles the bumps at 60 and accelerating. The 650i would be perfectly neutral and planted coming around the loop but then skitter 1 foot off line when it got to the bumps. SCARY!!!

The all time best handling car I had also had the most grip on that on ramp, a '91 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4. It was perfectly neutral like the 650i but incredibly controllable at the limit.

GarryF

I remember when I purchased my 530D in 2004 that Dynamic Drive made a sizeable difference to the lateral G force the E60 can handle, at the time tests were showing an E60 with DD could match the lateral force of a porsche boxster.

525iEnjoy

Road and Track
2007 Porsche Cayman
Base price range $50,195-$59,695
Price as tested $70,500 (S)
Vehicle layout Mid-engine, RWD, 2-pass, 2-door hatchback
Engine 3.4L/295-hp/251-lb-ft DOHC 24-valve flat-6
Transmission 6-speed manual
Curb weight (f/r dist) 3109 lb (46/54%)
Wheelbase 95.1 in
Length x width x height 172.1 x 70. x 51.4 in
0-60 mph 4.8 sec
Quarter mile 13.3 sec @ 105.0 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph 116 ft
600-foot slalom 69.1 mph, avg
Lateral acceleration 1.01 g, avg
MT figure eight 24.7 sec @ 0.79 g, avg
EPA city/hwy fuel econ 20/28 mpg


Car and Driver
VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, 4-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan

PRICE AS TESTED: $70,905

BASE PRICE: $52,375

ENGINE TYPE: twin-turbocharged and intercooled DOHC 24-valve inline-6, aluminum block and head, direct fuel injection
Displacement 182 cu in, 2979cc
Power (SAE net): 300 bhp @ 5800 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 300 lb-ft @ 1400 rpm

TRANSMISSION: 6-speed automatic with manumatic shifting

DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 113.7 in Length: 191.1 in Width: 72.7 in Height: 58.3 in
Curb weight: 4042 lb
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.4 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 24.2 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.0 sec
Standing ?-mile 14.0 sec @ 102 mph
Top speed (governor limited) 155 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph 177 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad 0.82 g


FUEL ECONOMY:
2008 EPA city driving 16 mpg
C/D observed 19 mpg

Look at the weight difference its 900 pounds, how can you feel sporty driving a sherman tank lol, I love my sport suspension but its not a Porsche. All they tested was the xi model. Plus i dont think the caymen had the turbo rims with wheel spacers