ipse dixit

When do you folks think we will see a hybrid 5 series?

I know that that BMW signed a memorandum of understanding with GM and Daimler-Chrysler a while back to jointly share R&D on hybrid technology. But that doesn't make it sound like BMW will come to market with anything anytime soon.

As an side, I know BMW touts that its hydrogen engine will go into production for the current 7 series, but I haven't really seen any significant movement on this front. What's the current word on this?

Oh, and guess, most importantly, would you folks actually buy a hybrid 5er?

300TTto545

I guess I would but I think I'd be happier with a 535d in the US. Hybrids make the most sense for city driving and much of mine is at 70 mph. I need a diesel much more.

DTAHT

I would guess it would be a ways off. The next generation 5 is due around 2011, and it certainly won't be designed to accomodate the hybrid drive - too far along in design process. The cars have to be designed to handle it, and BMW won't just dump a bunch of batteries in the car and screw up the handling. Ever drive a Prius?

wiszmaster

i will buy a diesel long before i will buy a hybrid. In general - the Hybrid cars cost between $3,000 - $9,000 more than the same car in a petrol engine, or a like car. and when comparing the Hybrid Honda Civic ... its a waste of money.

I would like to see some more advancements in the Hydrogen Engine technology .. as this would provide much smaller gasoline dependance than say a Hybrid engine ... beside the fact that you create battery cells that need to be manufactured & become toxic waste.

BMW said the diesels are coming for MY2007 ?

ipse dixit

I would guess it would be a ways off. The next generation 5 is due around 2011, and it certainly won't be designed to accomodate the hybrid drive - too far along in design process. The cars have to be designed to handle it, and BMW won't just dump a bunch of batteries in the car and screw up the handling. Ever drive a Prius?
[/quote]

Hmm, I don't really see how having an electrical motor will affect the handling dynamics of a car all that much. Sure, the extra space/weight(?) of the hybrid system might throw off the near 50/50 weight ratio of the 5er, but that problem can easily be solved with moving parts around and using aluminum and carbon materials in the chasis, etc.

I agree the Prius is more like a golf-cart than a real automobile, but ever drive a Honda Accord Hybrid? That sucker puts out 255hp (with 232 lb/ft of torque) and is mated to a V6 with a electrial hybrid setup.

The drivetrain setup won't affect the handling - the suspension and chasis will. A hybrid engine - as demonstrated by Honda - can be tuned to perform.

Mr.PC

I saw a recent article - maybe more than one, I think Wall Street Journal and Car & Driver to this effect: when you consider the premium you pay for a Prius, it would take something like 100K miles to recover that in fuel savings - right around the time you have to replace the batteries for $5,000 or so and start the "savings" process all over again. And hydrogen technology will have to advance considerably before it stops taking huge amounts of electricity (created by burning fossil fuels, usually) to make the hydrogen you need. In short -- all these technologies may make you feel good but they have a way to go before they are going to create a net benefit either to the environment or to our wallets.

mehall2

I would guess it would be a ways off. The next generation 5 is due around 2011, and it certainly won't be designed to accomodate the hybrid drive - too far along in design process. The cars have to be designed to handle it, and BMW won't just dump a bunch of batteries in the car and screw up the handling. Ever drive a Prius?
[/quote]

Hmm, I don't really see how having an electrical motor will affect the handling dynamics of a car all that much. Sure, the extra space/weight(?) of the hybrid system might throw off the near 50/50 weight ratio of the 5er, but that problem can easily be solved with moving parts around and using aluminum and carbon materials in the chasis, etc.

I agree the Prius is more like a golf-cart than a real automobile, but ever drive a Honda Accord Hybrid? That sucker puts out 255hp (with 232 lb/ft of torque) and is mated to a V6 with a electrial hybrid setup.

The drivetrain setup won't affect the handling - the suspension and chasis will. A hybrid engine - as demonstrated by Honda - can be tuned to perform.
[/quote]

I would have to disagree with your point about handling. Yes, the weight can be shifted around, but hybrids are already using lighter weight materials. Also, most of the hybrids that are available are FWD! This is a major handling disadvantage in my opinion. What good is 50/50 weight distribution when the Fronts are pulling the car. I haven't had the opportunity to drive the Honda, but I did drive a Lexus RX400H. The Hybrid Version of the RX330. It claimed more HP at 255hp.

I was NOT impressed at all on how the car handled or how loud the drivetrain was. It was NO BMW, and surely not what I expected from a Lexus. It had a very vague steering response, the acceleration was adequate at best. Freeway Passing, not what I expected. Overall, I was very dissapointed in the Lexus.

Maybe the Accord is different. Have you driven an Accord?

Regards, Mike.

P.S. One thing I see people constantly saying against hybrids is the fact that by the time you pay the premium for the technology, it will take up to 10 years to re-coup that in gas savings. The point of buying a hybrid, in MY OPINION, is to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels and be better enviromental stewards, not to save money. A Hybrid is a moral choice, as opposed to a financial one in todays marketplace. In the future, as gas continues to climb in price and hybrid technology get less expensive, that will change.

ipse dixit

I would guess it would be a ways off. The next generation 5 is due around 2011, and it certainly won't be designed to accomodate the hybrid drive - too far along in design process. The cars have to be designed to handle it, and BMW won't just dump a bunch of batteries in the car and screw up the handling. Ever drive a Prius?
[/quote]

Hmm, I don't really see how having an electrical motor will affect the handling dynamics of a car all that much. Sure, the extra space/weight(?) of the hybrid system might throw off the near 50/50 weight ratio of the 5er, but that problem can easily be solved with moving parts around and using aluminum and carbon materials in the chasis, etc.

I agree the Prius is more like a golf-cart than a real automobile, but ever drive a Honda Accord Hybrid? That sucker puts out 255hp (with 232 lb/ft of torque) and is mated to a V6 with a electrial hybrid setup.

The drivetrain setup won't affect the handling - the suspension and chasis will. A hybrid engine - as demonstrated by Honda - can be tuned to perform.
[/quote]

I would have to disagree with your point about handling. Yes, the weight can be shifted around, but hybrids are already using lighter weight materials. Also, most of the hybrids that are available are FWD! This is a major handling disadvantage in my opinion. What good is 50/50 weight distribution when the Fronts are pulling the car. I haven't had the opportunity to drive the Honda, but I did drive a Lexus RX400H. The Hybrid Version of the RX330. It claimed more HP at 255hp.

I was NOT impressed at all on how the car handled or how loud the drivetrain was. It was NO BMW, and surely not what I expected from a Lexus. It had a very vague steering response, the acceleration was adequate at best. Freeway Passing, not what I expected. Overall, I was very dissapointed in the Lexus.

Maybe the Accord is different. Have you driven an Accord?

Regards, Mike.

P.S. One thing I see people constantly saying against hybrids is the fact that by the time you pay the premium for the technology, it will take up to 10 years to re-coup that in gas savings. The point of buying a hybrid, in MY OPINION, is to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels and be better enviromental stewards, not to save money. A Hybrid is a moral choice, as opposed to a financial one in todays marketplace. In the future, as gas continues to climb in price and hybrid technology get less expensive, that will change.
[/quote]


Well, wait a minute, hybrid technology has really nothing to do with FWD (or RWD or even AWD). The Accord Hybrid is FWD simply because the regular Accord is FWD. Honda simply used the same platform for the regular and hybrid versions of the Accord. If BMW were to design a hybrid vehicle, it would obviously choose to us an existing (read: RWD) platform.

In any event, I have driven the Accord Hybrid and it is no slouch in the handling or performance department vis-a-vis the regular Accord. Of course, it is not on par with any BMW, but then it's not supposed to be, right?

And, yes, I very much agree with you that hybrid technology in cars is really about using less fossil fuel and not about saving $$$, necessarily.

Bimmer32

[quote=mehall2' date='Oct 12 2005, 04:23 PM]
[quote name='ipse dixit' date='Oct 12 2005, 03:14 PM']You'll noticed that Luxury hybrids claim more power and THEN "a the fuel consumption of a smaller engine." Average Joe car claims more efficiency at a higher price.

Chosing hybrids in NOT a moral decision, IMO. The politicians tell you what you want to hear and give you incentives (tax breaks) to buy a hybrid because those oil and gas lobbyists (the major polluters) are giving money to the politicians. You rub my back and I rub yours.

Petro engines are as clean as they can get since the Model T. They have also been very fuel efficiency (OK, not the e60s). At this point in time, hybrid is a hype just like back in the mid 50's when GM was touting "electric cars." When carmakers can justify the "COST BENEFIT" of hybrids over petro engine, then I'll buy in. I mean immediate cost benefit, not over 10 years which is no where never the average length of time a person keeps a car. The verdict on maintenance cost is still out on these beast. Save the environment? What are you going to do with all those batteries?

subterFUSE

You are simply shifting the consumption of one form of resource to another. Instead of gasoline, you're consuming electricity, which most likely comes from a coal plant.

Feel better if you want...but don't kid yourself.



It's just like recycling. Recycling actually wastes more energy than it saves. If the entire USA were to stop recycling, and throw away everything instead... in 50 years we'd have enough trash to fill a hole with the dimensions of 1 square mile, 150 feet deep. That's it. Then, we could fill the hole and build a bunch of golf courses on it.

Recycling takes tremendous energy to do... more energy than making things from raw resources. Where does the energy that runs a recycling plant come from? Fossil fuels, people.

Simple fact is that these conservation movements have little to nothing to do with conservation of anything, except for preserving the jobs of environmental lobbyists.... who have made a living off of it.



Hydrogen cars? How the hell are you going to have a country bubba in Alabama fill his car with hydrogen? Whenyou spill gasoline on the ground, nothing happens unless you throw a fire source on it. But hydrogen explodes on contact with air. Instantly. Anyone remember the Space Shuttle Challenger explosion? That's what happens when liquid hydrogen hits air. Poof, gone. How the hell are they going to make it safe to carry around one of the most volatile elements on earth? And then have it inside a metal cage travelling 80 mph? There is another term for a hydrogen car, it's called a bomb on wheels.

It's not safe. And people are too dumb to be allowed to handle such an unsafe fuel.