BMWN

This whole nightmare must stop, innocent people are suffering and dying every day. WTF is going on why no one is trying to stop them, US got to stop supporting Israel.

Iceman

I am no friend of Israel and their politics.
But:
They were attacked, and they have the right to defend themselves. I agree that it is very disturbing. But the innocent people were warned and the terrorists are hiding in between them. So, what should Israel do?

The whole situation seems to get out of control in the middle east.

It's very sad.

andy545

I am completely disgusted with the current situation. They have turned Lebanon back to the middle ages - the people there were doing OK there for a while, now...
The other day, a "smart" bomb took out 57 women and kids....not to mention the killed UN soldiers - defend ?...yes, but this is a demostration of disproportionate use of force. Has anyone seen how downtown Beirut looks like ?
They have complete air superiority, satellites, etc. this is really not necessary.
Not every house and street is a staging place for Hezbollah missiles.

IMHO, they have seized the opportunity from the kidnapping of the 2 Israeli soldiers and mini attack, (which they usually tactically responded with a bombing of a car of some high level Hamas or Hezbollah official) - to apply some western-axis agenda targeting in essence Syria and Iran.

I don't want to generalise, and I agree that belief extremism is too much and affects the world sometimes negatively, but "The fight against terrorism" to apply agendas/get rich has been one of the biggest conspiracies of our modern times.

Lab Rat

The U.S. has also then used dispoportionate use of force. Attack of Pearl Harbor 2,500 dead; attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki 200,000 dead. Firebombing of Dresden and German cities millions dead. These ragheads have been targeting buses and malls for years, and when they get paid back it is genocide. Ever wonder where the men in this community were? Probable fighting with Hezbolla. What kind of human beings strap bombs to their children as suicide bombers? Seems when they kill their own children intentionally it it OK. But if Israel accidentally kills children it is a crime against humanity.

andy545

2 points.
First, I said I don't want to generalise, let's stay with the arguments and thoughts of this current situation in the Middle East as per topic. I have the upmost respect with the efforts of WWII, but this was an engagement of military powers from both sides where a tactical, military and to some extent political objectives were clear and known. Thank god for the outcome we had.

Second and to the issue, you have mentioned the kids with bombs, suicide etc. Are you aware of the cause/motivation behind these people who have no other means than throw stones to a military power? Are you aware of the complex problems behind Palestine ?
I have also not mentioned anything about genocide nor crimes against humanity - so I will not comment.

Lastly, I'm trying to understand the mechanisms behind this situation and not take sides, and my conclusions are simple; when there is a question of power, money, strategy (and fear) - we (some more than others) are capable of such sinister acts, agreed, sometimes from both sides, and this is what disgusts me.

I am looking foward in the days ahead to listen which objectives exactly Israel achieved during this military operation. In the meantime, death continues and the UN can't do diddly squat about it.... :thumbsdown:

swajames

Andy, in your first post you essentially adopted the stance that Israel - though its military superiority and not taking the moral high ground - is at fault, though here you say you're not taking sides. In your second post you question LabRat's knowledge of the "cause and motivation" for the behaviors that drive suicide attacks - and particularly in the case of children there can never be any - but that is probably just as applicable to you and most of us in our assessment of the situation. Unless we have to live though this horror on a day in day out basis I really don't think any of us can understand what this must be like and how it impacts the decisions that people and governments must take. Can we imagine living in fear of what might be taped to another passenger every time you take a bus or a train or having to accept that going about your ordinary life exposes you to the constant threat of terror? At the end of the day I think I have a simple perspective on this and it's essentially that were the terror groups to disarm tomorrow the result would probably be peace but if Israel were to do the same thing I suspect the outcome may be very different. For that reason above any other I find it hard to condemn Israel, but like you and everyone else am saddened and horrified by the tragic waste of innocent human life throughout the region. I just wish I knew what the answer was.

needforspeed

I'm simply appalled by post - the views expressed are bigotted, ill concieved and worse - illogical.

Before I respond - please be aware that I am not doing so to antagonise you, instead I am hopeful that even if you are not able to see the gaping flaws in your arguments others will.

Israel's attacks on Lebanon are (according to them) specifically targetted against hezbollah. However independant evidence (including an assesment by the UN) is that a huge number of civillians have been killed, injured and displaced by the bombings.

You refer to the Lebanese people affected by this as 'these ragheads' which is just pathetic, distasteful and juvenile.

The majority of the lebanese people have not been 'targetting buses and malls for years', but they are paying the ultimate price on behalf of those who have.

Your comment about the men in the community fighting with hezbollah makes no sense.

The civilians killed include men and women of all ages and sadly a great many children.

The majority of these people have comitted no crime and regardless of personal politics views like your own have no place in a civilised society. These children did not bomb buses and they did not deserve to be killed.

The killing of any child is a crime against humanity, whether it is done directly by dropping bombs or indirectly by encouraging that child to become a suicide bomber.

Both are entirely wrong.

The current escalation in conflict is disturbing and saddening. Israel and it's neighbours have a long history of bloody retaliation and this is a situation that neither side will ever win.

By killing lebanese civillians indiscriminately Israel are simply providing an incentive for the survivors to retaliate against them.

The saddest thing is that this whole sorry situation came close to peace - until the assasination of Rabin by right wing extremists and the death of Arafat.

Israel's position since the death of Rabin has been highly aggressive and they have done little to enable the Palestinians to broker peace. No one likes to lose, but Israel has decided that it will win - which leaves nowhere for their enemies to go - other than to fight them.

I am apalled by the severity of the current Israeli attacks, both on a moral level and on a purely practical level because any fool can see that it will do them no good.

I am equally apalled that the UK and USA governments do not seem able to call for a cease fire or rebuke Israel for it's clearly disproportional response and I expect that this will do much to fuel the negative views of our 2 countrys which predominate in the arab world.

BMWN

Thats exactly what I thought, agreed 100%

andy545

You have some good points, except:

- High moral ground versus strategy, money, power and political interests; guess which one wins. This not coming from me, but human history and nature. My stance is that I believe there is an agenda behind this...as mentioned in my first post. How do I come to this conclusion? I am keen to follow the history, problems of the area and who is involved.

- I analyse a situation after trying to evaluate mechanisms driving it. I do this to for this exact reason to avoid taking sides. I am simply stating the facts I have viewed at face value. Symathising for someone does not mean I am automatically looking for abomination of the other side. I am looking for the reasons and to understand what kind of world I live in....this is someting personal and hard to explain to you. I hope you can empathize.

The remark about which side would stop if the other dicontinued hostilities is speculative. Guess what would happen if Palestine were just given their own state...it was Israel who took out their own PM for even contemplating peace (back to the strategy, power, money issue).

...only the "big boys" know the answers.....it is their intent for you and me never to learn them.

swajames

Yeah, I think we're on the same page Andy, I understand where you're coming from too.