Driver who killed teen sues parents over damage to his car
01-29-2008, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ1974' post='524398' date='Jan 29 2008, 01:51 PM
I think you may have misunderstood Alex's point. He is saying it's dangerous - and in the UK I agree. The roads here are busy and fast. I hate it when my kids go out on their bikes, because cars drive too fast. I have not rode my bike on a public road for years, because it's too dangerous. When I am driving, I do look out for bikes as well as all other traffic, but I find people on bikes zip in and out of traffic like they are invincible, undertaking, cutting cars up, etc. Not all of them do, but many of them do. And those that don't, ride along the rode at 15mph whilst big trucks and cars try and squeeze past them, making it dangerous for everyone.
I don't think Alex meant anything bad - of course everybody would prefer the person mentioned in the original post to be alive and the accident not have happened. And I am sure Alex shares my sentiments that the people who threw a bottle at you are sick and should be thrown in jail. But ask most people if they think riding a bike on public roads is safe and I expect the majority would say no. This isn't "having a go" at cyclists, it's just a fact of how the busy and fast roads in today's society are - nobody can deny that having cycles on fast roads with fast cars isn't dangerous, but it doesn't mean we all think throwing bottles at them is right or that they deserve to be in accidents.
I don't think Alex meant anything bad - of course everybody would prefer the person mentioned in the original post to be alive and the accident not have happened. And I am sure Alex shares my sentiments that the people who threw a bottle at you are sick and should be thrown in jail. But ask most people if they think riding a bike on public roads is safe and I expect the majority would say no. This isn't "having a go" at cyclists, it's just a fact of how the busy and fast roads in today's society are - nobody can deny that having cycles on fast roads with fast cars isn't dangerous, but it doesn't mean we all think throwing bottles at them is right or that they deserve to be in accidents.
)
01-29-2008, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bud' post='524247' date='Jan 29 2008, 08:12 AM
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: 
You've got to be kidding right? 
As a cyclist, I take great exception to your comment. I suppose pedestrians are next on your list? People cross the street all the time outside of crosswalks, which according to your logic would make them a danger to cars. Please rethink your opinion. I find people that talk on the phone or apply makeup (hopefully only women!) while driving are much more dangerous to the general public than cylists will ever be, especially when you consider they are operating machinery whose weight is measured in tons. I have been the victim of an assault from people that are of the same opinion that you have expressed and have taken it to the next level. A full beer bottle was thrown at me at 45 MPH, that took me off of my bike and broke two of my ribs! The news here in the states is full of similar stories where the cyclist ends up seriously hurt or killed. I am sorry to rant like this but as a cyclist I find it utterly appaling that someone would take anothers life so cavalierly. 
You've got to be kidding right? As a cyclist, I take great exception to your comment. I suppose pedestrians are next on your list? People cross the street all the time outside of crosswalks, which according to your logic would make them a danger to cars. Please rethink your opinion. I find people that talk on the phone or apply makeup (hopefully only women!) while driving are much more dangerous to the general public than cylists will ever be, especially when you consider they are operating machinery whose weight is measured in tons. I have been the victim of an assault from people that are of the same opinion that you have expressed and have taken it to the next level. A full beer bottle was thrown at me at 45 MPH, that took me off of my bike and broke two of my ribs! The news here in the states is full of similar stories where the cyclist ends up seriously hurt or killed. I am sorry to rant like this but as a cyclist I find it utterly appaling that someone would take anothers life so cavalierly. It ain't cycling that's dangerous. It's the drivers.
01-30-2008, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DanP' post='524498' date='Jan 29 2008, 08:02 PM
It ain't cycling that's dangerous. It's the drivers.
The road is full of cars. Put a person on a slow cycle inbetween fast moving heavy cars, and I can't see any way that it could be considered safe. If you sit in line with the traffic, cars will want to overtake you. Undertake them, and they won't see you. If traffic is slow and you weave in and out, you are likely to get hit.
It's VERY wrong for car drivers to throw abuse or physical items are a cyclist - people that do that shouldn't be allowed to drive. But for average sensible normal drivers, cyclists are dangerous. I've lost count of the number of times I will be at the front of a queue of traffic waiting at traffic lights. A cyclist will come along and undertake everybody, pull to the front of the queue in front of me. Lights change, I'm ready to do 0-60 in 6 seconds, and off they trundle at 10-15mph. And all of the cars now have to squeeze past the bike, carefully judging whether they want to drive too close to the cars travelling the other way, or too close to the bike that just undertook them all. In theory a motorbike should be much more dangerous, but it's not - because they can keep up with the speed and flow of traffic.
01-30-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Russ1974' post='524604' date='Jan 30 2008, 09:08 AM
But for average sensible normal drivers, cyclists are dangerous.
Sure, there are plenty of idiot cyclists, particularly on my local routes in London, but that doesn't excuse the poor quality, dangerous car driving I see when I'm out cycling. Yesterday was typical: white van man passing too close (a few cm) so that the draft nearly knocked me off, idiot in an MPV misjudging distances and almost left hooking me without indicating, and a moron who decided to pull in ahead and stop on a pedestrian crossing without indicating to let out a passenger. However, between these events I had over 40 miles of pleasant, safe cycling: it really is a cretinous minority of drivers who are the danger and the sooner they learn to share the road with all other users the better.
Oh, and I do keep up with traffic and am frequently the fastest thing on the road. But that's London for you.
BC
01-30-2008, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ1974' post='524604' date='Jan 30 2008, 01:08 AM
True. But that is kind of like saying that jumping off a bridge isn't dangerous - it's the ground hurtling towards you that is.
The road is full of cars. Put a person on a slow cycle inbetween fast moving heavy cars, and I can't see any way that it could be considered safe. If you sit in line with the traffic, cars will want to overtake you. Undertake them, and they won't see you. If traffic is slow and you weave in and out, you are likely to get hit.
It's VERY wrong for car drivers to throw abuse or physical items are a cyclist - people that do that shouldn't be allowed to drive. But for average sensible normal drivers, cyclists are dangerous. I've lost count of the number of times I will be at the front of a queue of traffic waiting at traffic lights. A cyclist will come along and undertake everybody, pull to the front of the queue in front of me. Lights change, I'm ready to do 0-60 in 6 seconds, and off they trundle at 10-15mph. And all of the cars now have to squeeze past the bike, carefully judging whether they want to drive too close to the cars travelling the other way, or too close to the bike that just undertook them all. In theory a motorbike should be much more dangerous, but it's not - because they can keep up with the speed and flow of traffic.
The road is full of cars. Put a person on a slow cycle inbetween fast moving heavy cars, and I can't see any way that it could be considered safe. If you sit in line with the traffic, cars will want to overtake you. Undertake them, and they won't see you. If traffic is slow and you weave in and out, you are likely to get hit.
It's VERY wrong for car drivers to throw abuse or physical items are a cyclist - people that do that shouldn't be allowed to drive. But for average sensible normal drivers, cyclists are dangerous. I've lost count of the number of times I will be at the front of a queue of traffic waiting at traffic lights. A cyclist will come along and undertake everybody, pull to the front of the queue in front of me. Lights change, I'm ready to do 0-60 in 6 seconds, and off they trundle at 10-15mph. And all of the cars now have to squeeze past the bike, carefully judging whether they want to drive too close to the cars travelling the other way, or too close to the bike that just undertook them all. In theory a motorbike should be much more dangerous, but it's not - because they can keep up with the speed and flow of traffic.
If you are trying to say that cars and bicycles cannot share the road safely, I have to disagree. It's quite possible for bikes and cars to share the road safely (with occasional exceptions caused by horrendous highway design, but cyclists quickly learn to avoid those spots). Experienced cyclists know how to do it. Watch out for children, as always!
Safety issues are caused by drivers who are impatient, and pass when it is not safe to do so. Or by people who think that their car gives them some moral high ground that allows them to harrass and threaten cyclists, which is an attitude that I've never understood. Those are the people who throw things at cyclists. They should go to jail, but they're never caught.
Safety issues are also sometimes caused by cyclists who are idiots, but no more so than by drivers who are idiots, and the cyclist is only putting him/herself at risk, not other people. The world is full of idiots but that is a separate problem.
There is more than one kind of slow-moving traffic on the roads. Nobody tries to run the mailman off the road just because he's driving slowly, or a garbage truck, or a farmer's tractor. For some reason people treat cyclists differently. I don't know why.
01-30-2008, 01:14 PM
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This will likely get me in trouble, but the headline and the body of the story are a bit at odds: "Driver who killed teen" vs "As the sun had set when he [the motorcyclist] crossed the path of Delgado's car from a side road".
The motorcyclist "crossed the path" and a court found both parties to blame. It seems clear to me that the Audi driver didn't turn his car into the bike and kill the teen. There's a bit of media hyperbole there.
I'm not saying that the biker was at fault, but if - if - he was, at least in the US, the Audi driver would have been compensated for his damaged car even if the offending party tragically was killed. There are always many sides to these stories. Media hype doesn't help.
The motorcyclist "crossed the path" and a court found both parties to blame. It seems clear to me that the Audi driver didn't turn his car into the bike and kill the teen. There's a bit of media hyperbole there.
I'm not saying that the biker was at fault, but if - if - he was, at least in the US, the Audi driver would have been compensated for his damaged car even if the offending party tragically was killed. There are always many sides to these stories. Media hype doesn't help.
01-30-2008, 02:40 PM
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Just to clarify, I believe it was a bicycle, not a motorbike.
Your statement reminds me of a tragic accident I witnessed a few years ago ... in short, I was at some traffic lights with a car in front of me at night. We both drove off, got up to about 50mph, I saw a guy jogging along the side of the road and start to cross without looking. I thought he was going to run between me and the car in front so I slowed down. He didn't, he ran in front of the other car, head through the windscreen, flipped over the car, and dropped down in front of me. I called the ambulance and covered him with one of my kids blankets, and watched as he died right in front of me. The driver of the other car was in shock but I'll never forget when I walked up to him to see if he was ok just a few seconds after he had killed somebody ... "who is going to pay for my new windscreen?" he said.
Your statement reminds me of a tragic accident I witnessed a few years ago ... in short, I was at some traffic lights with a car in front of me at night. We both drove off, got up to about 50mph, I saw a guy jogging along the side of the road and start to cross without looking. I thought he was going to run between me and the car in front so I slowed down. He didn't, he ran in front of the other car, head through the windscreen, flipped over the car, and dropped down in front of me. I called the ambulance and covered him with one of my kids blankets, and watched as he died right in front of me. The driver of the other car was in shock but I'll never forget when I walked up to him to see if he was ok just a few seconds after he had killed somebody ... "who is going to pay for my new windscreen?" he said.
01-30-2008, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DanP' post='524891' date='Jan 30 2008, 01:54 PM
False analogy. Cycling isn't a stupid thing to do, nor is it the result of a mental health issue.
If you are trying to say that cars and bicycles cannot share the road safely, I have to disagree. It's quite possible for bikes and cars to share the road safely (with occasional exceptions caused by horrendous highway design, but cyclists quickly learn to avoid those spots). Experienced cyclists know how to do it. Watch out for children, as always!
Safety issues are caused by drivers who are impatient, and pass when it is not safe to do so. Or by people who think that their car gives them some moral high ground that allows them to harrass and threaten cyclists, which is an attitude that I've never understood. Those are the people who throw things at cyclists. They should go to jail, but they're never caught.
Safety issues are also sometimes caused by cyclists who are idiots, but no more so than by drivers who are idiots, and the cyclist is only putting him/herself at risk, not other people. The world is full of idiots but that is a separate problem.
There is more than one kind of slow-moving traffic on the roads. Nobody tries to run the mailman off the road just because he's driving slowly, or a garbage truck, or a farmer's tractor. For some reason people treat cyclists differently. I don't know why.
If you are trying to say that cars and bicycles cannot share the road safely, I have to disagree. It's quite possible for bikes and cars to share the road safely (with occasional exceptions caused by horrendous highway design, but cyclists quickly learn to avoid those spots). Experienced cyclists know how to do it. Watch out for children, as always!
Safety issues are caused by drivers who are impatient, and pass when it is not safe to do so. Or by people who think that their car gives them some moral high ground that allows them to harrass and threaten cyclists, which is an attitude that I've never understood. Those are the people who throw things at cyclists. They should go to jail, but they're never caught.
Safety issues are also sometimes caused by cyclists who are idiots, but no more so than by drivers who are idiots, and the cyclist is only putting him/herself at risk, not other people. The world is full of idiots but that is a separate problem.
There is more than one kind of slow-moving traffic on the roads. Nobody tries to run the mailman off the road just because he's driving slowly, or a garbage truck, or a farmer's tractor. For some reason people treat cyclists differently. I don't know why.
. The majority of "incidents" when I am riding generally stem from impatient motorists. (Disclaimer: I know that there are some ignorant cyclists out there, believe me, they upset us probably more than you all as they give us a bad name and cause us to face angry drivers!) Please understand we are acclerating under our own power. It may cost you a few moments, but one mistake can cost us our lives. I have cycled competitively on and off since the mid 80's and have varied in my fitness levels but I can say there have been times when cars are holding me up! (In 2004 descending the Tourmalet in France I was traveling between 65 and 70 MPH and "racing" a Z4!) 
On another note, I just received this tonight. It is my new team bike! Please disregard setup as it is in the prebuild stage right now.
01-30-2008, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ1974' post='524982' date='Jan 30 2008, 06:40 PM
Just to clarify, I believe it was a bicycle, not a motorbike.
01-30-2008, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bud' post='525071' date='Jan 30 2008, 06:19 PM
Some very good points Dan, we should get together and ride sometime . The majority of "incidents" when I am riding generally stem from impatient motorists. (Disclaimer: I know that there are some ignorant cyclists out there, believe me, they upset us probably more than you all as they give us a bad name and cause us to face angry drivers!) Please understand we are acclerating under our own power. It may cost you a few moments, but one mistake can cost us our lives. I have cycled competitively on and off since the mid 80's and have varied in my fitness levels but I can say there have been times when cars are holding me up! (In 2004 descending the Tourmalet in France I was traveling between 65 and 70 MPH and "racing" a Z4!)
On another note, I just received this tonight. It is my new team bike! Please disregard setup as it is in the prebuild stage right now.
. The majority of "incidents" when I am riding generally stem from impatient motorists. (Disclaimer: I know that there are some ignorant cyclists out there, believe me, they upset us probably more than you all as they give us a bad name and cause us to face angry drivers!) Please understand we are acclerating under our own power. It may cost you a few moments, but one mistake can cost us our lives. I have cycled competitively on and off since the mid 80's and have varied in my fitness levels but I can say there have been times when cars are holding me up! (In 2004 descending the Tourmalet in France I was traveling between 65 and 70 MPH and "racing" a Z4!) On another note, I just received this tonight. It is my new team bike! Please disregard setup as it is in the prebuild stage right now.
To the non-cyclists on this board, that bike is roughly the cycling equivalent of an M5. Except, as they say in the cycling business, "It's your legs, not what's between them." [You can interpret that any way you want.
]