Active Steering
09-08-2004, 02:15 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by wolverine' date='Aug 29 2004, 08:10 PM
[quote name='Rudy' date='Aug 29 2004, 04:15 PM'] I agree with wolverine that AS can be a problem on the track.
What would be nice, however, is if BMW includes AS on the M5 but not just allow it to be disabled -- instead they should allow you to dial in whatever ratio you want and fix it there until you choose a different ratio or re-enable the system to work as we know it.
Imagine being able to dial up a quick ratio for a track with tight turns, etc and let the car do it's thing.? If you need to drive the car home from the track, you can go ahead and enable AS and let it do its thing normally...?
What would be nice, however, is if BMW includes AS on the M5 but not just allow it to be disabled -- instead they should allow you to dial in whatever ratio you want and fix it there until you choose a different ratio or re-enable the system to work as we know it.
Imagine being able to dial up a quick ratio for a track with tight turns, etc and let the car do it's thing.? If you need to drive the car home from the track, you can go ahead and enable AS and let it do its thing normally...?
Great idea, but I doubt BMW will implement it.
Let's just hope they give us the choice of active or not. [/quote]
I don't think BMW would implement such a feature, it is just too dangerous. This would be something for true expert drivers, which many of us like to view themselves as -- but the vast majority of these cars are sold to the average consumer driver. Just imagine people playing around with this feature and thus completely, and somewhat suddenly and drastically, changing the way the car steers: far too many accidents!
Plus, I would not want iDrive to play any role in this: it cannot even remember (find) my programmed radio stations at times -- don't let it mess up our steering!
09-08-2004, 06:18 PM
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I suspect that another reason that AS is deleted from the M6 is that AS countersteers for you at the limit, which is something that a skilled driver would want to do for themselves (including selecting the amount of oversteer). With AS, DSC will intervene and control the front wheels for you to regain control of the car. A M6 driven on the track would appear to DSC as if it was frequently on the verge of over- or under-steer, and (with AS) DSC would attempt to intervene and steer into the (perceived) skid. Also, please note that AS can not be turned off on the 5 or 6, so this is not an option. It's always going to intervene. Clearly this "computer knows better" intrusion is not the kind of maximum sports car behaviour that BMW would want in the M5/M6. 
Speaking of which, has anyone had any experience with the automatic countersteering feature of Active Steering? I suspect that the folks at the 6 Driving Experience may have had a peek at this, since they did a lot of driving at the edge and may have noticed it. When DSC detects that the car is oversteering, for example, it can steer into the skid to regain control and then continue in the desired direction. This is exactly what a professional driver does with a quick flick of the wrist, applying "opposite lock", as (s)he feels the tires losing traction. AS does this automatically, much as ABS did the same for braking (taking the guesswork out of threshhold braking).
I recall that the maximum is 5 degrees of directional input. This is one of the first courses of action for DSC to regain directional control since this system is quite quick to respond (faster than building up brake pressure and applying it to individual wheels, Corner Braking Control). This feature can not be turned off.
Some folks, when reading of this "feature," feel that it is too intrusive and not an atribute of a driver's car. I rather agree and wish that we could turn it off for the occasional wild foray on the track.
anyone with experience?
Robert
Speaking of which, has anyone had any experience with the automatic countersteering feature of Active Steering? I suspect that the folks at the 6 Driving Experience may have had a peek at this, since they did a lot of driving at the edge and may have noticed it. When DSC detects that the car is oversteering, for example, it can steer into the skid to regain control and then continue in the desired direction. This is exactly what a professional driver does with a quick flick of the wrist, applying "opposite lock", as (s)he feels the tires losing traction. AS does this automatically, much as ABS did the same for braking (taking the guesswork out of threshhold braking).
I recall that the maximum is 5 degrees of directional input. This is one of the first courses of action for DSC to regain directional control since this system is quite quick to respond (faster than building up brake pressure and applying it to individual wheels, Corner Braking Control). This feature can not be turned off.
Some folks, when reading of this "feature," feel that it is too intrusive and not an atribute of a driver's car. I rather agree and wish that we could turn it off for the occasional wild foray on the track.
anyone with experience?
Robert
09-09-2004, 04:52 AM
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The M5 and the M6 have the M button on the steering wheel, what anables the M-Drive. BMW should add an automatic shut off of AS to this button. So when driving on track, you push the M button and you get the M HUD, M suspension, all the HP, DSC shut off and AS shut off.
I really don't understand BMW here, because the M5 and the M6 will get the speed limiter and your dealer will not take it out for you! So the top speed of the M5, M6 and a 545 is the same, the emmy's just simply drive waaay more sporty and accelarate waaaaaaaay faster. But if BMW thinks there is this problem you describe, why do they still have AS in the regular 5er's ?
Anyways, I think they should find a way to give the driver the ability to shut AS off in an emmy! I'm not buying one without AS, because when I drive it off track I want AS!
I really don't understand BMW here, because the M5 and the M6 will get the speed limiter and your dealer will not take it out for you! So the top speed of the M5, M6 and a 545 is the same, the emmy's just simply drive waaay more sporty and accelarate waaaaaaaay faster. But if BMW thinks there is this problem you describe, why do they still have AS in the regular 5er's ?
Anyways, I think they should find a way to give the driver the ability to shut AS off in an emmy! I'm not buying one without AS, because when I drive it off track I want AS!
09-09-2004, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rduncan' date='Sep 8 2004, 08:18 PM
I suspect that another reason that AS is deleted from the M6 is that AS countersteers for you at the limit, which is something that a skilled driver would want to do for themselves (including selecting the amount of oversteer). With AS, DSC will intervene and control the front wheels for you to regain control of the car. A M6 driven on the track would appear to DSC as if it was frequently on the verge of over- or under-steer, and (with AS) DSC would attempt to intervene and steer into the (perceived) skid. Also, please note that AS can not be turned off on the 5 or 6, so this is not an option. It's always going to intervene. Clearly this "computer knows better" intrusion is not the kind of maximum sports car behaviour that BMW would want in the M5/M6.
Speaking of which, has anyone had any experience with the automatic countersteering feature of Active Steering? I suspect that the folks at the 6 Driving Experience may have had a peek at this, since they did a lot of driving at the edge and may have noticed it. When DSC detects that the car is oversteering, for example, it can steer into the skid to regain control and then continue in the desired direction. This is exactly what a professional driver does with a quick flick of the wrist, applying "opposite lock", as (s)he feels the tires losing traction. AS does this automatically, much as ABS did the same for braking (taking the guesswork out of threshhold braking).
I recall that the maximum is 5 degrees of directional input. This is one of the first courses of action for DSC to regain directional control since this system is quite quick to respond (faster than building up brake pressure and applying it to individual wheels, Corner Braking Control). This feature can not be turned off.
Some folks, when reading of this "feature," feel that it is too intrusive and not an atribute of a driver's car. I rather agree and wish that we could turn it off for the occasional wild foray on the track.
anyone with experience?
Robert
Speaking of which, has anyone had any experience with the automatic countersteering feature of Active Steering? I suspect that the folks at the 6 Driving Experience may have had a peek at this, since they did a lot of driving at the edge and may have noticed it. When DSC detects that the car is oversteering, for example, it can steer into the skid to regain control and then continue in the desired direction. This is exactly what a professional driver does with a quick flick of the wrist, applying "opposite lock", as (s)he feels the tires losing traction. AS does this automatically, much as ABS did the same for braking (taking the guesswork out of threshhold braking).
I recall that the maximum is 5 degrees of directional input. This is one of the first courses of action for DSC to regain directional control since this system is quite quick to respond (faster than building up brake pressure and applying it to individual wheels, Corner Braking Control). This feature can not be turned off.
Some folks, when reading of this "feature," feel that it is too intrusive and not an atribute of a driver's car. I rather agree and wish that we could turn it off for the occasional wild foray on the track.
anyone with experience?
Robert
09-09-2004, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JBOO' date='Aug 29 2004, 10:54 PM
Can someone give a quick down and dirty on what the difference bettween AS and servotronic is?
I was under the impression, servotronic is what makes it easier to manuever in tight spots?
BTW, I brought my wife on the 2nd drive of AS to ensure she was comfortable with driving. We both agreed that we could not tell what all the fuss was about AS. It was not difficult to drive and we didn't notice that much of a difference ini ease of steering over her A2 and the Chrysler Pacifica we sold. Maybe those cars have overboosted steering or something?
I was under the impression, servotronic is what makes it easier to manuever in tight spots?
BTW, I brought my wife on the 2nd drive of AS to ensure she was comfortable with driving. We both agreed that we could not tell what all the fuss was about AS. It was not difficult to drive and we didn't notice that much of a difference ini ease of steering over her A2 and the Chrysler Pacifica we sold. Maybe those cars have overboosted steering or something?
09-09-2004, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by wolverine' date='Sep 9 2004, 09:20 PM
AS actually changes the steering ratio dependant upon the speed.? At low speeds, you can completely turn the wheels with 1-1/2 turns of the steering wheel.? As speeds increase, the ratio increases until the ratio reaches 3 turns lock to lock.? This means that if you turn the steering wheel a certain amount as you are rapidly slowing down (trail-braking into a turn), the amount the front wheels turn in changes as you slow down.? This is totally unnacceptable for racing, and is why I think they are not offering active steering on the M5.
Do you think there is a chance they will somewhen offer the "emmy" with AS what you can turn off???
Since you would only need to shut it off for high speed driving and racing...!?
09-11-2004, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Flowerfred' date='Sep 11 2004, 11:10 AM
If nobody buys one, they'd have to eventually. But as always, they're are always enough monkeys lining up to spend their money.
So if I buy one then I'm a monkey?
09-11-2004, 10:50 AM
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A pretty well off monkey I'd say.. 
Just kidding. My point is that customers are just not critical enough in my opinion. Iceman has a good point, these cars are driven slowly more often than on a track. The decision to supply the M5 without is a ridiculous one imho, and a reason for me not to get one..
The fact that a bluetooth retrofit is costing me GBP 1700 is another..
Just kidding. My point is that customers are just not critical enough in my opinion. Iceman has a good point, these cars are driven slowly more often than on a track. The decision to supply the M5 without is a ridiculous one imho, and a reason for me not to get one..
The fact that a bluetooth retrofit is costing me GBP 1700 is another..