Review: KW v2 and JIC/Cross Coilovers
04-05-2010, 06:34 PM
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I thought I would post up my impression between the two companies products.
I initially bought KW v2 coilovers from my local shop for $1800 and had them installed there too.
1) The ride was fully adjustable, and i could lower from 1 to 2 inches all the way around. I set the shocks to more of a softer side and then put on my te37's and had some fun driving around.
2) Very comfortable ride initially. However, however a while the coils started to make a lot of creaking and popping noises when going over bumps or even turning lock to lock. I had my shop inspect them and retorque everything down. They oiled everything and the noises went away for about a week. Eventually the popping became so excessive it was frankly embarassing and loud. I paid $2400 with install and the coilovers sounded like Tanabe sustecs or Tein coils. They rode great but sounded like shit. I had my shop contact KW NA about it and they shrugged it off with a shitty response.
3) I loved the ride but the noises were frankly unacceptable and lousy. I wanted to go lower in the front but I couldnt because of clearance issues and the coils were maxed out at 2 inches
As many of you know and saw i bought some used JIC/Cross coilovers from another member on here. Sam over at sleek did my install recently and I drove the car all around SF and Hayward and then back up to Tacoma from SF which is like 1000 miles with plenty of sharp turns and hills once you hit Oregon.
1) Coils are adjusted differently but having a completely threaded body that you adjust from the bottom piece, this does multiple things, it keeps the spring rates the same regardless of the drop, and it allows clearance of wheels because the springs arent moving further down at an angle.
2) Completely silent in operation. No clicking, popping, grinding or strange gremlins.
3) Its shock adjustability is more sensitive than KW, i have it slammed and set to 1 right now and thats a solid ride, not bouncy at all but stiff. Its slightly more stiff than my KWs were and these are lower.
KW uses helper springs to assist when you lower the car to keep the rates similar and JIC doesnt use helper springs. I suspect that some of my creaking noises came from have more springs in the coil and also one of the reasons why my JICs dont have that issue at all.
Overall:
I really loved my KWs for their ride but their noises were shitty to me, the JICs are smooth and quiet. Now the biggest issue here is price. KW v2 retail for $2300 and most vendors will do around $1800 give or take $100, making the street price pretty expensive but not too shabby. The JIC/Cross coils retail for $2700 and the street price is yet to be established as myself, michael and now only one other member have these. Figure on $1800-$2100 street though, but it is just an estimate.
Given the design differences and performance of both, the JIC/Cross coils are the better product IMHO. I love mine in everyway I didnt when I had the KW's.
The prices are very comparable with JIC being slightly more expensive but even if I bought these at a new price I would still choose them over KW from this point forward.
Just some of my thoughts as i traveled from SF back to Tacoma with them. I also went from Tacoma to Vancouver BC with my KW's and did the same amount of spirited driving so I feel i have a good understanding for the ability of the KW's against the JIC's.
Just my thoughts, but you guys should SERIOUSLY look into JIC over KW for the better design and performance differences if you are looking for coils.
From JIC/Cross:
CROSS Suspension Coilover Kits Feature
HIGH STRENGTH INVERTED MONTOTUBE (Unlike KW Who Uses Twin Tube Design)
This unique design features a 40mm piston with a one of a kind bumpstop design in cased inside the damper. The walls of the shock casing is lined with grease so that the absorber body can easily move along inside the shock casing body. There are also two thrust bearings to protect the absorber body. The inverted monotube design also allows for a stronger support for the strut type suspension.
COOL BEND LINEAR SPRING
Linear rate spring manufactured using chrome silicon metal alloy with a cool bend process to prevent sag or loss of spring rate. This allows for a direct feel with the vehicle and driver. In addition, CROSS is one of the only companies that utilizes the linear spring for better handling. Each kit comes with various spring rates that are available for more of a custom set up from strictly street performance to all out race-prepped vehicles.
ADJUSTABLE DAMPENING
Available for all applications with 15 ways adjustability. With this feature, you are able to tune your suspension dampening up to your spec. Adjustability is easy with inverted monotube on the bottom of the damper and monotube dampers on the top. An adjustable knob (included with the kit) makes adjustability easy with solid clicks. Adjustability can be softer for street use and brought up for track use. CROSS Competition Series Coilovers have a broad range of adjustability to suit any type of driver looking to upgrade their high performance Porsche.
ADJUSTABLE LOWER BRACKET
More durable than factory brackets with adjustable ride height ranging from 0.5" to 2.5" drop without sacrificing the suspension travel. No other European performance coilover company offers this feature. The independent height drop feature also prevents the noisey annoyance of hitting the bump stop. This also extends the performance capabilities as you can get full shock travel. Made of either high grade steel or high strength aluminum.
I initially bought KW v2 coilovers from my local shop for $1800 and had them installed there too.
1) The ride was fully adjustable, and i could lower from 1 to 2 inches all the way around. I set the shocks to more of a softer side and then put on my te37's and had some fun driving around.
2) Very comfortable ride initially. However, however a while the coils started to make a lot of creaking and popping noises when going over bumps or even turning lock to lock. I had my shop inspect them and retorque everything down. They oiled everything and the noises went away for about a week. Eventually the popping became so excessive it was frankly embarassing and loud. I paid $2400 with install and the coilovers sounded like Tanabe sustecs or Tein coils. They rode great but sounded like shit. I had my shop contact KW NA about it and they shrugged it off with a shitty response.
3) I loved the ride but the noises were frankly unacceptable and lousy. I wanted to go lower in the front but I couldnt because of clearance issues and the coils were maxed out at 2 inches
As many of you know and saw i bought some used JIC/Cross coilovers from another member on here. Sam over at sleek did my install recently and I drove the car all around SF and Hayward and then back up to Tacoma from SF which is like 1000 miles with plenty of sharp turns and hills once you hit Oregon.
1) Coils are adjusted differently but having a completely threaded body that you adjust from the bottom piece, this does multiple things, it keeps the spring rates the same regardless of the drop, and it allows clearance of wheels because the springs arent moving further down at an angle.
2) Completely silent in operation. No clicking, popping, grinding or strange gremlins.
3) Its shock adjustability is more sensitive than KW, i have it slammed and set to 1 right now and thats a solid ride, not bouncy at all but stiff. Its slightly more stiff than my KWs were and these are lower.
KW uses helper springs to assist when you lower the car to keep the rates similar and JIC doesnt use helper springs. I suspect that some of my creaking noises came from have more springs in the coil and also one of the reasons why my JICs dont have that issue at all.
Overall:
I really loved my KWs for their ride but their noises were shitty to me, the JICs are smooth and quiet. Now the biggest issue here is price. KW v2 retail for $2300 and most vendors will do around $1800 give or take $100, making the street price pretty expensive but not too shabby. The JIC/Cross coils retail for $2700 and the street price is yet to be established as myself, michael and now only one other member have these. Figure on $1800-$2100 street though, but it is just an estimate.
Given the design differences and performance of both, the JIC/Cross coils are the better product IMHO. I love mine in everyway I didnt when I had the KW's.
The prices are very comparable with JIC being slightly more expensive but even if I bought these at a new price I would still choose them over KW from this point forward.
Just some of my thoughts as i traveled from SF back to Tacoma with them. I also went from Tacoma to Vancouver BC with my KW's and did the same amount of spirited driving so I feel i have a good understanding for the ability of the KW's against the JIC's.
Just my thoughts, but you guys should SERIOUSLY look into JIC over KW for the better design and performance differences if you are looking for coils.
From JIC/Cross:
CROSS Suspension Coilover Kits Feature
HIGH STRENGTH INVERTED MONTOTUBE (Unlike KW Who Uses Twin Tube Design)
This unique design features a 40mm piston with a one of a kind bumpstop design in cased inside the damper. The walls of the shock casing is lined with grease so that the absorber body can easily move along inside the shock casing body. There are also two thrust bearings to protect the absorber body. The inverted monotube design also allows for a stronger support for the strut type suspension.
COOL BEND LINEAR SPRING
Linear rate spring manufactured using chrome silicon metal alloy with a cool bend process to prevent sag or loss of spring rate. This allows for a direct feel with the vehicle and driver. In addition, CROSS is one of the only companies that utilizes the linear spring for better handling. Each kit comes with various spring rates that are available for more of a custom set up from strictly street performance to all out race-prepped vehicles.
ADJUSTABLE DAMPENING
Available for all applications with 15 ways adjustability. With this feature, you are able to tune your suspension dampening up to your spec. Adjustability is easy with inverted monotube on the bottom of the damper and monotube dampers on the top. An adjustable knob (included with the kit) makes adjustability easy with solid clicks. Adjustability can be softer for street use and brought up for track use. CROSS Competition Series Coilovers have a broad range of adjustability to suit any type of driver looking to upgrade their high performance Porsche.
ADJUSTABLE LOWER BRACKET
More durable than factory brackets with adjustable ride height ranging from 0.5" to 2.5" drop without sacrificing the suspension travel. No other European performance coilover company offers this feature. The independent height drop feature also prevents the noisey annoyance of hitting the bump stop. This also extends the performance capabilities as you can get full shock travel. Made of either high grade steel or high strength aluminum.
04-05-2010, 06:43 PM
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here is a better explanation:
This was lifted from an e92 user that installed JICs on his m3:
"In order to explain which one I think is better, I need to describe the differences between the two build construction philosophy's first...
Mono-Tube shocks:
Instead of using two chambers, mono-tube shock absorbers only use a single tube. (and two pistons) One of the primary advantages to use this design, is that a mono-tube shock has basically twice the piston power as a twin-tube shock.
The first piston is located at the end of the piston rod. This first piston pushes against a section of oil, which is forced downward into the second piston. This floating piston is sandwiched between a section of viscose oil and a pocket of highly charged gas (at 200?360 psi). By separating the oil from the gas, mono-tube shocks greatly reduce the risk of oil foaming and fade. (which results in smoother more consistent performance)
The dual piston design of mono-tube shocks provides stiffer dampening characteristics, which is exactly what most BMW enthusiasts are looking for in their aftermarket suspension options. Mono-tube shocks are better suited to the type of driving most of us crave. The end user ends up with a sportier handling suspension package on the street, and as an added bonus...a tighter more precise handling setup for the occasional track day at the local road course.
Mono-tube shocks are also air cooled, so they do not retain heat the way twin-tubes shocks will. Mono-tube shocks are also more flexible, since they can be mounted upside down for extra weight support.
One downside however, is that most mono-tube shocks are difficult to mount in place of many twin-tube shocks on certain cars. (because of the added length and range of movement) I should also add that mono-tube shocks are slightly more vulnerable to external damage, because there is no outer buffer.
A typical high performance mono-tube gas shock (or strut) consists of a rod that slides in and out of a pressurized sealed tube. The rod has a piston riveted to one end which prevents it from being forced out of the tube when it's pressurized.
The force of the gas strut is provided by the gas pressure acting on the cross sectional area of the rod. The higher the gas pressure...the higher the force of the strut. The piston has a metering orifice (valve) which allows the gas to pass from one side of the piston to the other. (by altering the size of this orifice the rate of extension can be varied)
The oil inside the gas strut produces the damping characteristics throughout the stroke. (if the shock strut is in the correct orientation) As the rod extends from a compressed position, the oil zone will dampen the movement as it reaches its full extension. (giving a smooth controlled stop) The damping characteristics can be changed by using different viscosity oil in the tube, and volume of oil in the tube.
Because a mono-tube shock doesn?t require a ?tube-within-a-tube? for a given outside diameter, a mono-tube shock will have a larger inner bore. That allows the engineer to use a larger internal piston than a twin-tube shock design. This offers the advantage of designing a shock that can extract the maximum possible damping from the smallest diameter package. (which is important on heavier cars)
Mono-tube designed shocks also allow the heat in the oil to transfer directly to the outer surface of the shock body. That design allows the oil to be in direct contact with cooling airflow (as it passes over the shock body), so it can dissipate heat more efficiently than a twin-tube design.
The sum total of all these engineering advantages, is that the mono-tube design reduces heat-induced fade better than than the twin-tube designs.
Mono-tube designs allow the shock to maintain full damping characteristics as temperatures rise with hard use.
Twin-tube shocks:
Twin-tube shocks will typically deliver a comfortable, stable ride with very good dampening capabilities. In fact, twin-tubes are probably the most commonly used shocks in the automotive industry. (original equipment and aftermarket) Twin-tube shocks are the ideal shocks for most of the cars on the road today IMO. In normal street driving situations...they feel smooth yet still reduce body roll. They do allow the car to sway a little more during hard cornering, and during hard stops in 'spirited' driving conditions.
Twin-tube shock technology has been around for about 100 years, so this design concept has certainly stood the test of time. As its name implies, twin-tube shocks have 2 chambers: an inner and an outer tube.
The inner tube is where most of the work takes place. Here, the piston moves up and down through the main supply of oil. The outer chamber holds an extra supply of oil and a low pressure nitrogen gas charge. (at approx. 100?150 psi) The nitrogen gas provides the backstop against the flow of oil for heavy shock dampening.
Unfortunately, as the oil inside the shock heats up heats up (during heavy sustained use)...it can mix with the nitrogen gas.
That's the major downside to twin-tube shocks.
They tend to overheat quicker than mono-tube shocks (under the same loads)
That tendency to overheat, leads to internal foaming...which leads to fading...which leads to very inconsistent (and very poor) damping performance. (in extreme driving conditions)
That is why nearly all high-performance shock absorber kits use mono-tube shock designs.
In regards to the shock absorber technology that is used today...
The internal construction of a modern shock (or strut) is a very simple design...but it is also a very delicate process. It works great when everything goes according to plan...but when it doesn't, the performance can deteriorate rather quickly.
It's important to understand that mono-tube designed shocks will tend to work better on some cars, while twin-tube designs are better suited on others.
It's all about the application, and what you intend to use the car for down the road.
All the energy created by the chassis/springs/tires/wheels/brakes has to go somewhere...and it ends up morphing into heat. (inside the shock)
Unfortunately, when the shocks internal damping oil temps starts to rise, its viscosity starts to thin out. (so it absorbs less energy) If the oil gets too hot, it can start to bubble like a pot of boiling water on the stove.
That is what causes "shock fade".
In addition to just providing good suspension damping, a good shock must also be properly engineered to dissipate heat as efficiently as possible. (for consistent performance)
This is what separates the men from the boys IMO.
From personal experience, the very best shock manufacturers seem to find a way to keep shock fade and foaming in check. The most effective way to do this, seems to be the ability to maintain a consistent internal pressure within the tube even as the temps start to rise. Most of those solutions are proprietary, and are not available to the general public.
There are effective ways to prevent the heat from compromising the performance of an internal shock absorber. (even though it's basically a sealed hydraulic system)
For example:
Have you ever wondered why your radiator coolant doesn't boil over (and evaporate) even under extreme overheating conditions?
Now before someone chimes in with "the anti-freeze/coolant", I'm talking about the high boiling point of your engine coolant even without the 50/50 mix of water/anti-freeze. Contrary to popular belief, it's NOT the 50/50 coolant/water mix that saves your engine from overheating when it gets really hot. (it does helps a little, but it's only a small contributing factor) In fact, your 50/50 water/anti-freeze mix only increases the boiling point of your coolant system by roughly 10 degrees Fahrenheit. (not kidding, that's it)
That's not a lot of additional protection to keeping your coolant system from boiling over on a hot summer day now is it?
No, the real answer is not the water/coolant mix, but rather the PRESSURE the coolant system is forced to maintain as it operates.
Because your coolant system is pressurized, the atmospheric pressure greatly increases a fluid's boiling point. Just as the boiling temperature of water is higher in a pressure cooker, the boiling temperature of coolant is higher if you pressurize the system. Most cars have a coolant pressure limit of 14 to 15 psi, which raises the boiling point another 45 degrees Fahrenheit, so the coolant system can withstand higher temperatures. (without boiling)
Shock absorbers work the same way...
Several shock & strut manufacturers use a similar engineering philosophy to reduce shock fade in their designs.
In my opinion, there is no comparison. Mono-tube designs > Twin-tube designs. "
This was lifted from an e92 user that installed JICs on his m3:
"In order to explain which one I think is better, I need to describe the differences between the two build construction philosophy's first...
Mono-Tube shocks:
Instead of using two chambers, mono-tube shock absorbers only use a single tube. (and two pistons) One of the primary advantages to use this design, is that a mono-tube shock has basically twice the piston power as a twin-tube shock.
The first piston is located at the end of the piston rod. This first piston pushes against a section of oil, which is forced downward into the second piston. This floating piston is sandwiched between a section of viscose oil and a pocket of highly charged gas (at 200?360 psi). By separating the oil from the gas, mono-tube shocks greatly reduce the risk of oil foaming and fade. (which results in smoother more consistent performance)
The dual piston design of mono-tube shocks provides stiffer dampening characteristics, which is exactly what most BMW enthusiasts are looking for in their aftermarket suspension options. Mono-tube shocks are better suited to the type of driving most of us crave. The end user ends up with a sportier handling suspension package on the street, and as an added bonus...a tighter more precise handling setup for the occasional track day at the local road course.
Mono-tube shocks are also air cooled, so they do not retain heat the way twin-tubes shocks will. Mono-tube shocks are also more flexible, since they can be mounted upside down for extra weight support.
One downside however, is that most mono-tube shocks are difficult to mount in place of many twin-tube shocks on certain cars. (because of the added length and range of movement) I should also add that mono-tube shocks are slightly more vulnerable to external damage, because there is no outer buffer.
A typical high performance mono-tube gas shock (or strut) consists of a rod that slides in and out of a pressurized sealed tube. The rod has a piston riveted to one end which prevents it from being forced out of the tube when it's pressurized.
The force of the gas strut is provided by the gas pressure acting on the cross sectional area of the rod. The higher the gas pressure...the higher the force of the strut. The piston has a metering orifice (valve) which allows the gas to pass from one side of the piston to the other. (by altering the size of this orifice the rate of extension can be varied)
The oil inside the gas strut produces the damping characteristics throughout the stroke. (if the shock strut is in the correct orientation) As the rod extends from a compressed position, the oil zone will dampen the movement as it reaches its full extension. (giving a smooth controlled stop) The damping characteristics can be changed by using different viscosity oil in the tube, and volume of oil in the tube.
Because a mono-tube shock doesn?t require a ?tube-within-a-tube? for a given outside diameter, a mono-tube shock will have a larger inner bore. That allows the engineer to use a larger internal piston than a twin-tube shock design. This offers the advantage of designing a shock that can extract the maximum possible damping from the smallest diameter package. (which is important on heavier cars)
Mono-tube designed shocks also allow the heat in the oil to transfer directly to the outer surface of the shock body. That design allows the oil to be in direct contact with cooling airflow (as it passes over the shock body), so it can dissipate heat more efficiently than a twin-tube design.
The sum total of all these engineering advantages, is that the mono-tube design reduces heat-induced fade better than than the twin-tube designs.
Mono-tube designs allow the shock to maintain full damping characteristics as temperatures rise with hard use.
Twin-tube shocks:
Twin-tube shocks will typically deliver a comfortable, stable ride with very good dampening capabilities. In fact, twin-tubes are probably the most commonly used shocks in the automotive industry. (original equipment and aftermarket) Twin-tube shocks are the ideal shocks for most of the cars on the road today IMO. In normal street driving situations...they feel smooth yet still reduce body roll. They do allow the car to sway a little more during hard cornering, and during hard stops in 'spirited' driving conditions.
Twin-tube shock technology has been around for about 100 years, so this design concept has certainly stood the test of time. As its name implies, twin-tube shocks have 2 chambers: an inner and an outer tube.
The inner tube is where most of the work takes place. Here, the piston moves up and down through the main supply of oil. The outer chamber holds an extra supply of oil and a low pressure nitrogen gas charge. (at approx. 100?150 psi) The nitrogen gas provides the backstop against the flow of oil for heavy shock dampening.
Unfortunately, as the oil inside the shock heats up heats up (during heavy sustained use)...it can mix with the nitrogen gas.
That's the major downside to twin-tube shocks.
They tend to overheat quicker than mono-tube shocks (under the same loads)
That tendency to overheat, leads to internal foaming...which leads to fading...which leads to very inconsistent (and very poor) damping performance. (in extreme driving conditions)
That is why nearly all high-performance shock absorber kits use mono-tube shock designs.
In regards to the shock absorber technology that is used today...
The internal construction of a modern shock (or strut) is a very simple design...but it is also a very delicate process. It works great when everything goes according to plan...but when it doesn't, the performance can deteriorate rather quickly.
It's important to understand that mono-tube designed shocks will tend to work better on some cars, while twin-tube designs are better suited on others.
It's all about the application, and what you intend to use the car for down the road.
All the energy created by the chassis/springs/tires/wheels/brakes has to go somewhere...and it ends up morphing into heat. (inside the shock)
Unfortunately, when the shocks internal damping oil temps starts to rise, its viscosity starts to thin out. (so it absorbs less energy) If the oil gets too hot, it can start to bubble like a pot of boiling water on the stove.
That is what causes "shock fade".
In addition to just providing good suspension damping, a good shock must also be properly engineered to dissipate heat as efficiently as possible. (for consistent performance)
This is what separates the men from the boys IMO.
From personal experience, the very best shock manufacturers seem to find a way to keep shock fade and foaming in check. The most effective way to do this, seems to be the ability to maintain a consistent internal pressure within the tube even as the temps start to rise. Most of those solutions are proprietary, and are not available to the general public.
There are effective ways to prevent the heat from compromising the performance of an internal shock absorber. (even though it's basically a sealed hydraulic system)
For example:
Have you ever wondered why your radiator coolant doesn't boil over (and evaporate) even under extreme overheating conditions?
Now before someone chimes in with "the anti-freeze/coolant", I'm talking about the high boiling point of your engine coolant even without the 50/50 mix of water/anti-freeze. Contrary to popular belief, it's NOT the 50/50 coolant/water mix that saves your engine from overheating when it gets really hot. (it does helps a little, but it's only a small contributing factor) In fact, your 50/50 water/anti-freeze mix only increases the boiling point of your coolant system by roughly 10 degrees Fahrenheit. (not kidding, that's it)
That's not a lot of additional protection to keeping your coolant system from boiling over on a hot summer day now is it?
No, the real answer is not the water/coolant mix, but rather the PRESSURE the coolant system is forced to maintain as it operates.
Because your coolant system is pressurized, the atmospheric pressure greatly increases a fluid's boiling point. Just as the boiling temperature of water is higher in a pressure cooker, the boiling temperature of coolant is higher if you pressurize the system. Most cars have a coolant pressure limit of 14 to 15 psi, which raises the boiling point another 45 degrees Fahrenheit, so the coolant system can withstand higher temperatures. (without boiling)
Shock absorbers work the same way...
Several shock & strut manufacturers use a similar engineering philosophy to reduce shock fade in their designs.
In my opinion, there is no comparison. Mono-tube designs > Twin-tube designs. "
04-05-2010, 06:57 PM
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I read the first post, but not the second one. My attention span for reading is sort of limited on time LoL, and my eyes got crossed eyed. 
2 things,
1st - Damn you drove a million miles this past week, and sounds like you had fun, and got back home fast.
2nd -
These are a few good reasons why I like this design better. You can get a alot lower, without affecting suspension travel too much.
2 things,
1st - Damn you drove a million miles this past week, and sounds like you had fun, and got back home fast.
2nd -
More durable than factory brackets with adjustable ride height ranging from 0.5" to 2.5" drop without sacrificing the suspension travel. No other European performance coilover company offers this feature. The independent height drop feature also prevents the noisey annoyance of hitting the bump stop. This also extends the performance capabilities as you can get full shock travel. Made of either high grade steel or high strength aluminum.
04-05-2010, 07:02 PM
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I read the first post, but not the second one. My attention span for reading is sort of limited on time LoL, and my eyes got crossed eyed.
2 things,
1st - Damn you drove a million miles this past week, and sounds like you had fun, and got back home fast.
2nd -
These are a few good reasons why I like this design better. You can get a alot lower, without affecting suspension travel too much.
2 things,
1st - Damn you drove a million miles this past week, and sounds like you had fun, and got back home fast.
2nd -
These are a few good reasons why I like this design better. You can get a alot lower, without affecting suspension travel too much.
yeah i did, i had to relearn to walk when i got out of the car and yes the ability to lower this way is much more appealing and worth our money. the older designs are a dinosaur compared to monotube JICs
lol learn to read Sam
04-05-2010, 07:09 PM
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i saw that thread, you got the same price as me and yours are technically newer with the newer colors lol
if timing wasnt against me i would have bought them both
glad you enjoyed the review
04-05-2010, 08:38 PM
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yo Eric, glad you are enjoying the new coil overs. sorry to hear about the problems with the v2s. It's funny because both the v2s and v3s i have seem fine. i'll keep my fingers crossed. again congrats on the new setup and happy motoring.
04-05-2010, 08:46 PM
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My Ride: 14 550i
How much did you lower them? I've found that height and ride quality are inversely proportional when it comes to KWs. KW just has better marketing than JIC/CROSS which is why everyone "trusts" KW.
Michael
Acute Performance
Michael
Acute Performance