DD694

Znod - don't dwell on this, as it may only depress you.

znod

Thanks E60... No I'm not dwelling there or anywhere. I am just enjoying doing the testing, adding some info on the benefits or not of modding, and seeing if I can get my car back. I was a tad down when my car's performance was hurt initially, but I've been over it a long time. Just having fun.

znod

I forgot to answer this question. Nope, I am not a welder. I had my dealer uninstall everything. When a dealer has to replace a muffler, it usually will use a clamp rather than weld. Rather than use the original B&B clamp, my dealer used a mega BMW clamp. I had my dealer install everything to have it on the "official" record. And, I had my dealer uninstall everything for the same reason.

znod

Oops.

Centurion

Absolutely. Ultimately, as long as you're satisfied with the testing method and got the info you were looking for, then all is good.

Yes, average trap speed is now higher but average ET at the quarter is now also quicker! 13.800 vs. the previous 13.823 seconds.
Things are still inconclusive. I would be willing to bet that an updated ECU which takes into account the increased volume of air intake (due to the Dinan throttle body) would yield significant/favorable results but why Dinan would not include this with the purchase of their throttle body is beyond me.

znod

OK, but remember the things I have said above. In my post #1, I said:

"My tests reveal no discernable performance difference between my modded and unmodded car.
.................................................. .................................................. .......................................

Please note that I am not saying that minimal mods might not make a seat-of-the-pants or measurable difference on some cars some of the time. I am saying they make no difference on my car given its current circumstances. It remains to be seen if they were hurting my car's performance. This conclusion will depend on whether my car's performance continues to improve through learning.

Keep in mind that there are benefits to minimal mods other than performance--e.g., the sound of a muffler and the appearance of its tips. And, remember that minimal mods, when combined with others, such as programming and an intake may be necessary to reap the full benefits of the potentially more significant mods."

And, after my run today, I said, in reply to grogan545:

"IMO, the most reasonable explanation for the mods-off car being faster is that the mods were hurting performance. This scenario might occur whether or not the car is continuing to learn. Note that learning, if any, appeared to have stopped with the mods on. Now, learning may or may not have resumed. If not, then the mods simply were hurting performance with everything else equal. On the other hand if leaning resumed once I took the mods off, then it would appear that the mods were hampering performance by hampering learning and possibly in some other way--e.g., fouling the air fuel ratio.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..

I am highly satisfied with the conclusion that the mods were not helping my car and are likely to have been hurting its performance. I may advance the second part of this conclusion more strongly if my car continues to improve."

So, my point is that I am not attempting to generalize beyond my car. And, I have emphasized "that minimal mods, when combined with others, such as programming and an intake may be necessary to reap the full benefits of the potentially more significant mods." Thus, I think my results are pretty darn conclusive given that my conclusions are limited to only my car.

And, incidentally, did you see my new statistical analysis and predictions on the "Our Fearless Forcasts" thread in the M5 discussion? I though you'd have something to say about the results from larger samples, etc.

Finally, why would Dinan proceed as it does? My best answer is cash flow/profitability. In this regard, since virtually no one in the E60 community tests, the tendency, for various reasons, will be for purchasers to believe, as I did, that the Company's minimal mods help even if they never reap any real benefits from them because they do not also install the intake, programming, etc. Also, not many would think that a minimal mod might hurt performance given a CIP update and, thus, might be willing to buy "now" expecting to add all the Dinan parts eventually. That's what I did.

Centurion

You could always ship that throttle body to me and I can keep...err, conduct testing on my car.

znod

Yes, I could. I could even sell it to you or lease it to you. Look back at my prior post. I was editing while you were posting. There is more there for you. Thanks for thinking with me.

znod

From today's results, I have new conclusions--pertaining only to my car--and my car alone:

It is likely that my mods were hurting my car's performance after my 20.01.00 update. My reasoning, although far from air tight, is given in the next paragraph. It is based on the assumption that my car had ceased learing with mods on after my dealer reset. I can't really demonstrate that this assumption is valid because now I have done many more tests. Also, I have discarded a great deal of pre-mods-off data--because the runs were so poor.

Given my results from the past few days, I believe that my car is learning again--although note that the temperature, when I was out this morning, was 5 degrees cooler than for my earlier tests. So, I am aware that the temperature may account partially, but only partially IMO, for today's improved results. Perhaps grogan545i can share his experience on how much difference 5 degrees might make. Given that the temperature difference is not the only factor explaining today's improvements, I conclude my car is learning again and that my mods were hampering performance by hampering learing or negating the potential effects of learning by, for example, causing retardation of timing, negatively affecting the air-fuel ratio, etc.

Below are the averages for today's three tests. I will be posting the complete data set on the g-meter testing thread on the main forum.

Mods Off
................................Average
1/4 Mile Speed.........103.080
1/8 Mile Speed...........82.157
1/4 Mile Time.............13.692
0-100........................12.685
0-90..........................10.354
1/8 Mile Time...............8.901
0-80............................8.535
0-70............................6.880
0-60............................5.217
0-50............................4.002
0-40............................2.936
0-30............................1.768
0-20............................1.010
0-10............................0.331

1/4 Mile Time.............13.692
1,000 Feet................11.503
1/8 Mile Time...............8.901
330 Feet.....................5.816
60 Feet.......................2.053

grogan545

Well Zman it looks like you are making progress.These new numbers are looking much better.I doubt that 5 deg diff in temp would make much difference.Humidity is a much larger factor in reducing performance.Unless you had a large diff in humidity I would ignore the temp diff.

Your times to 60 are sightly slower than your ave posted before 20.01(5.14 vs 5.217).But look at your 0-80 times compared to previous to 20.01(8.67 with 19.01 vs 8.535 now).You are now showing similar acceleration to mine at higher speeds.Remember my times seemed to expolde after 50 compared to yours.Now your times show a similar pattern.It looks like the mods were hurting your performance,especially at higher speeds.It does look like your car is relearning albeit at a slow pace.I know you are now using the Pro RR.I would be curious to see what your GT2 would show when you finally get numbers equal to your 19.01.I am confident you will get there in the near future.