iPod options & Cost
01-03-2007, 01:49 AM
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Hi everyone
I am looking for some information on connecting my iPod to my E60 and was wondering if the information I gathered so far are accurate
. What I know is that I have two choices:
1-Aux input: Which is the cheaper option (Now standard on all new E60) and will be able to connect the ipod through my Headphone socket. This will enable me to control only the volume through the car but every thing else through the ipod itself. My CD Changer will remain usable.
2-MOST bus (or something like that): Which is Much more expensive and will enable me to control the iPod via iDrive (Song & Album selection). But I will lose my CD Changer functionality.
Please feel free to correct me if I am misinformed and would be very helpful if someone experienced either. I would also like to know the cost of the MOST bus connection. And if there is any difference in sound quality between the two options.
Many thanks
I am looking for some information on connecting my iPod to my E60 and was wondering if the information I gathered so far are accurate
. What I know is that I have two choices:1-Aux input: Which is the cheaper option (Now standard on all new E60) and will be able to connect the ipod through my Headphone socket. This will enable me to control only the volume through the car but every thing else through the ipod itself. My CD Changer will remain usable.
2-MOST bus (or something like that): Which is Much more expensive and will enable me to control the iPod via iDrive (Song & Album selection). But I will lose my CD Changer functionality.
Please feel free to correct me if I am misinformed and would be very helpful if someone experienced either. I would also like to know the cost of the MOST bus connection. And if there is any difference in sound quality between the two options.
Many thanks
01-03-2007, 02:06 AM
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your understanding is basically correct, AFAIK. There have been a few recent threads on the topic...
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=35034
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=35089
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=34010
Sound quality will be significantly compromised using the Aux input, unless you remove the filter.
Edit - another one: http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=34310
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=35034
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=35089
http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=34010
Sound quality will be significantly compromised using the Aux input, unless you remove the filter.
Edit - another one: http://forums.e60.net/index.php?showtopic=34310
01-03-2007, 04:24 AM
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I will add some information here:
I currently own 2 cars. The first is my E60, which is a 2005 545i purchased in Nov 2004. This car came with Logic 7 stereo with CD Changer, but no AUX Input. I had the AUX input installed by the dealer shortly after purchasing the car. The cost was about $100 labor + the cost of the input.
My second car is a 2006 E90... a 325i with Logic 7. This car came with a factory installed AUX Input.
So far, what you said above is correct. The AUX input is simply a 1/8" stereo jack which will accept any audio source you plug into it. The advantage of this option is that you are not limited to using an Apple iPod brand product. You may use any other type of MP3 player, or other devices such as MiniDisc, portable CD players, or even a laptop computer. Any audio source which can output a 1/8" stereo plug can be used.
If you are using an iPod with the AUX Input, you have 2 choices for connections.
1. Use the iPod's headphone jack.
2. Use a Dock Connector with Line Output.
The first option is the easiest. You simply plug a male-to-male 1/8" stereo cord into the iPod headphone jack on top, and the other end into the AUX Input. This is not the preferred method, however.... for 2 reasons.
First, the headphone output on the iPod is not a constant level output. It uses a preamp and amplifier which powers the headphones which you would normally use. Therefore, you must adjust the volume on the iPod when using the headphone output. But you will also need to adjust the volume on the car, as well. Having to adjust 2 separate volumes can be cumbersome, and it is also risky. It is easy to damage your stereo system by accidentally sending overpowered signals. (ie volume on iPod turned up high and the car turned on high at the same time)
Second, the sound quality from the headphone output is not a good. Since this output signal must pass through an internal preamp and headphone power amp, the audio signal is consequently degraded.
The other option is to use the Line Output on the iPod. The Line Output is a constant level signal, designed for use with externally amplified systems. In order to use the Line Output, you must connect the iPod to an accessory device which gives you the output. An example is the iPod Dock. This is a small desktop stand which you connect to your computer. When you place the iPod in tis cradle, it charges the iPod and connects it to the computer through USB. In addition, the Dock offers a stereo 1/8" jack which can be connected to other audio devices. This output serves as the Line Output. The Line Output, as I mentioned, is a constant signal.... so it is therefore unaffected by the iPod's internal volume control. In my cars, I use a product from Monster Cable called the iCar Play Charger. It is a cigarette lighter adapter which recharges the iPod, but it also gives me a Line Output jack. I use the Line Output jack to connect my iPod to the AUX Input in my BMWs.
Now.... for the sound quality issues: The sound quality on the AUX Inputs is frankly, terrible. I will explain as best I can my experiences.
My first introduction to the AUX Input was on my E60, after I had the AUX installed by my BMW dealer. As you have probably read by now, a number of people on this board have advocated a simple modification to the AUX Input cable to improve sound quality. I am one of the people in this group, and I actually wrote a detailed Do-It-Yourself thread on the process. That thread can be found here: AUX Cable Modification The purpose of this modification is to remove some resistors from the signal chain between your iPod and the BMW stereo system. These resistors have been installed by BMW in an effort to prevent overloading the stereo system when using an audio device with an amplified signal (i.e. the iPod with headphone jack). As I mentioned above, one of the disadvantages of using the headphone jack output on the iPod is that you must use the volume controls on both the iPod and the BMW.... and that this can lead to speaker damage in your car. Well, the resistors are placed in the signal chain in an effort to prevent such damage. But a consequence of this is a reduction in overall bass response of your audio. Since bass sounds are the louder and more powerful end of the auditory spectrum, the resistors act as "bass blockers" to prevent speaker damage. By removing the resistors, the bass blocking is effectively removed as well. But you must be more careful if you do this, since the resistors will no longer be protecting your stereo. If you undertake this modification it is recommended that you only use the Line Output from your iPod, as this will bypass the internal volume control and give you a constant level output.
I must also tell you the following: When I originally purchased by AUX Input for my E60, and had it installed... I did not know about the resistors. I thought the overall sound quality was fine. After reading about some people performing this modification I decided to try it myself, and that's when I made that DIY thread. Once completed, I felt like I could notice a difference in the sound quality. But since this mod was completed, I had no way of listening back and forth to compare. (Example: Listen to a song with resistors, and then without to compare) So my perception was simply based on my memory of the sound quality before performing the mod. Obviously this is not the most exact method of comparison.
Shortly after, I purchased my E90. This car came from the factory with the AUX Input already installed. Since this car has the AUX from the factory, I think it is safe to assume that the resistors are built into the line. However, the AUX Input on the E90 is located in the armrest and appears more difficult to modify, so I have not undertaken this task. But now this means I have a method to compare the sound quality between the resisitors and without. And so I have done this test. And to my surprise, I have not found a discernable difference in bass response or overall loudness between my 2 cars. So, I therefore must question the effectiveness of removing the resistors from the signal chain. Others on this board will disagree with me on this, but all I can say is that I have done my best to compare them in an objective manner.... and my experience was that I couldn't tell a difference.
So.... that is the longwinded version of the first major sound quality issue with the AUX Input.
There is another, more important sound quality issue which I will discuss. This issue deals with audio interference.
I have discovered that there is significant audio interference introduced to the system when using my iPod with AUX Input. I have singled out 2 sources of interference:
1. Alternator noise introduced through the cigarette charger.
2. Noise coming from the iPod itself, which I believe is coming from the hard drive.
Alternator noise is a common problem for car audio, in general. The alternator is responsible for providing the car's electrical system with power while the engine is running. The noise typically results from poorly grounded components which develop a ground loop, causing a high-pitched whine sound. Since the power for the car is supplied by the alternator, the ground loop noise will get louder and faster as the car accelerates. This noise is extremely annoying, and its presence is considered a critical fault for any car stereo installer. Unfortunately, BMW is not a company which is known for having good electrical systems.... and therefore alternator noise is a common problem when using an iPod with a cigarette charger. Both my cars have serious alternator noise problems when using my chargers. But I have discovered that the overall loudness of the noise can be reduced dramatically by adjusting the position of the cigarette adapter in the lighter socket. By twisting and adjusting the adapter I have found a point where the noise gets reduced but the iPod still gets power to charge.
Next, I have discovered that even when the iPod is not charging there is still some noise interference in the signal. I believe this noise is coming from the hard drive inside the iPod, which has some moving parts. One concern I had was whether this noise was the result of using the AUX Input. I wanted to know if people who use the MOST Bus option had the same issue. So I began the following thread about this: Sound Quality Testing The end result seems to be that the MOST Bus adapter provides a cure to these noise problems which I encountered with the AUX Input. (Both the alternator noise, and the hard drive access noise)
I currently own 2 cars. The first is my E60, which is a 2005 545i purchased in Nov 2004. This car came with Logic 7 stereo with CD Changer, but no AUX Input. I had the AUX input installed by the dealer shortly after purchasing the car. The cost was about $100 labor + the cost of the input.
My second car is a 2006 E90... a 325i with Logic 7. This car came with a factory installed AUX Input.
So far, what you said above is correct. The AUX input is simply a 1/8" stereo jack which will accept any audio source you plug into it. The advantage of this option is that you are not limited to using an Apple iPod brand product. You may use any other type of MP3 player, or other devices such as MiniDisc, portable CD players, or even a laptop computer. Any audio source which can output a 1/8" stereo plug can be used.
If you are using an iPod with the AUX Input, you have 2 choices for connections.
1. Use the iPod's headphone jack.
2. Use a Dock Connector with Line Output.
The first option is the easiest. You simply plug a male-to-male 1/8" stereo cord into the iPod headphone jack on top, and the other end into the AUX Input. This is not the preferred method, however.... for 2 reasons.
First, the headphone output on the iPod is not a constant level output. It uses a preamp and amplifier which powers the headphones which you would normally use. Therefore, you must adjust the volume on the iPod when using the headphone output. But you will also need to adjust the volume on the car, as well. Having to adjust 2 separate volumes can be cumbersome, and it is also risky. It is easy to damage your stereo system by accidentally sending overpowered signals. (ie volume on iPod turned up high and the car turned on high at the same time)
Second, the sound quality from the headphone output is not a good. Since this output signal must pass through an internal preamp and headphone power amp, the audio signal is consequently degraded.
The other option is to use the Line Output on the iPod. The Line Output is a constant level signal, designed for use with externally amplified systems. In order to use the Line Output, you must connect the iPod to an accessory device which gives you the output. An example is the iPod Dock. This is a small desktop stand which you connect to your computer. When you place the iPod in tis cradle, it charges the iPod and connects it to the computer through USB. In addition, the Dock offers a stereo 1/8" jack which can be connected to other audio devices. This output serves as the Line Output. The Line Output, as I mentioned, is a constant signal.... so it is therefore unaffected by the iPod's internal volume control. In my cars, I use a product from Monster Cable called the iCar Play Charger. It is a cigarette lighter adapter which recharges the iPod, but it also gives me a Line Output jack. I use the Line Output jack to connect my iPod to the AUX Input in my BMWs.
Now.... for the sound quality issues: The sound quality on the AUX Inputs is frankly, terrible. I will explain as best I can my experiences.
My first introduction to the AUX Input was on my E60, after I had the AUX installed by my BMW dealer. As you have probably read by now, a number of people on this board have advocated a simple modification to the AUX Input cable to improve sound quality. I am one of the people in this group, and I actually wrote a detailed Do-It-Yourself thread on the process. That thread can be found here: AUX Cable Modification The purpose of this modification is to remove some resistors from the signal chain between your iPod and the BMW stereo system. These resistors have been installed by BMW in an effort to prevent overloading the stereo system when using an audio device with an amplified signal (i.e. the iPod with headphone jack). As I mentioned above, one of the disadvantages of using the headphone jack output on the iPod is that you must use the volume controls on both the iPod and the BMW.... and that this can lead to speaker damage in your car. Well, the resistors are placed in the signal chain in an effort to prevent such damage. But a consequence of this is a reduction in overall bass response of your audio. Since bass sounds are the louder and more powerful end of the auditory spectrum, the resistors act as "bass blockers" to prevent speaker damage. By removing the resistors, the bass blocking is effectively removed as well. But you must be more careful if you do this, since the resistors will no longer be protecting your stereo. If you undertake this modification it is recommended that you only use the Line Output from your iPod, as this will bypass the internal volume control and give you a constant level output.
I must also tell you the following: When I originally purchased by AUX Input for my E60, and had it installed... I did not know about the resistors. I thought the overall sound quality was fine. After reading about some people performing this modification I decided to try it myself, and that's when I made that DIY thread. Once completed, I felt like I could notice a difference in the sound quality. But since this mod was completed, I had no way of listening back and forth to compare. (Example: Listen to a song with resistors, and then without to compare) So my perception was simply based on my memory of the sound quality before performing the mod. Obviously this is not the most exact method of comparison.
Shortly after, I purchased my E90. This car came from the factory with the AUX Input already installed. Since this car has the AUX from the factory, I think it is safe to assume that the resistors are built into the line. However, the AUX Input on the E90 is located in the armrest and appears more difficult to modify, so I have not undertaken this task. But now this means I have a method to compare the sound quality between the resisitors and without. And so I have done this test. And to my surprise, I have not found a discernable difference in bass response or overall loudness between my 2 cars. So, I therefore must question the effectiveness of removing the resistors from the signal chain. Others on this board will disagree with me on this, but all I can say is that I have done my best to compare them in an objective manner.... and my experience was that I couldn't tell a difference.
So.... that is the longwinded version of the first major sound quality issue with the AUX Input.
There is another, more important sound quality issue which I will discuss. This issue deals with audio interference.
I have discovered that there is significant audio interference introduced to the system when using my iPod with AUX Input. I have singled out 2 sources of interference:
1. Alternator noise introduced through the cigarette charger.
2. Noise coming from the iPod itself, which I believe is coming from the hard drive.
Alternator noise is a common problem for car audio, in general. The alternator is responsible for providing the car's electrical system with power while the engine is running. The noise typically results from poorly grounded components which develop a ground loop, causing a high-pitched whine sound. Since the power for the car is supplied by the alternator, the ground loop noise will get louder and faster as the car accelerates. This noise is extremely annoying, and its presence is considered a critical fault for any car stereo installer. Unfortunately, BMW is not a company which is known for having good electrical systems.... and therefore alternator noise is a common problem when using an iPod with a cigarette charger. Both my cars have serious alternator noise problems when using my chargers. But I have discovered that the overall loudness of the noise can be reduced dramatically by adjusting the position of the cigarette adapter in the lighter socket. By twisting and adjusting the adapter I have found a point where the noise gets reduced but the iPod still gets power to charge.
Next, I have discovered that even when the iPod is not charging there is still some noise interference in the signal. I believe this noise is coming from the hard drive inside the iPod, which has some moving parts. One concern I had was whether this noise was the result of using the AUX Input. I wanted to know if people who use the MOST Bus option had the same issue. So I began the following thread about this: Sound Quality Testing The end result seems to be that the MOST Bus adapter provides a cure to these noise problems which I encountered with the AUX Input. (Both the alternator noise, and the hard drive access noise)
01-03-2007, 06:09 AM
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I forgot to add another important sound quality issue.
I have tested the sound quality of various types of audio files on my iPods, and then compared them to the same music on CD. To do this, I took an audio CD and ripped it into various audio formats including AAC, MP3, and Apple Lossless. I then loaded all versions into my iPod, and took the original CD out to the car. I proceeded to compare each audio format against each other, and against the same song on CD. I have found that the bass response when comparing a CD to ANY audio source on my iPod is dramatically different. CD sounds so much better, that I have actually considered ditching my iPod completely. I was astonished. I know a lot about audio, since I am a DJ and also deal with pro audio production software on a daily basis. So I knew that compressed audio formats won't sound as good. But I wasn't prepared for how dramatic the difference was vs. CD. So much more bass extension on CD. Not even Apple Lossless sounded anywhere close to the same. For years I have read articles writen in pro audio magazines where they take well-known audiophiles and have them listen to blind-tests with MP3 vs. CD.... and they claim the experts can't tell a difference. But I could tell a difference INSTANTLY. It was almost as if the audio files had a high-pass filter applied to them. If I had an RTA meter, I guess I could perform a serious test on the frequency response to be sure.... but I don't. Regardless, my ears (and butt) don't lie.... I could hear and feel the difference in the bass response.
(And this was not simply a volume issue)
This may have more to do with the iPod itself. The iPod is not a high-end piece of audio gear. It is a disposable piece of crap which has been marketed brilliantly to take up a huge market share. But as for overall quality, they are garbage. So it could be that the sound quality differences I experienced are due to poor components. (i.e. cheap D/A converters)
I like the iPod for the convenience, but I honestly have been struggling with the decision to just return to using CDs. Sound quality is very important to me, particularly with the styles of music I listen to. So far I am still using the iPod, and I have refrained from using CDs in a hope that I can desensitize myself.
It really is a shame that as we move forward in a technological age, that major issues such as sound quality in professional recordings are moving backwards.... not forwards. You would think that as our technology improves, that we would see improvements.... but alas, this is not the case. It is very disappointing.
I have tested the sound quality of various types of audio files on my iPods, and then compared them to the same music on CD. To do this, I took an audio CD and ripped it into various audio formats including AAC, MP3, and Apple Lossless. I then loaded all versions into my iPod, and took the original CD out to the car. I proceeded to compare each audio format against each other, and against the same song on CD. I have found that the bass response when comparing a CD to ANY audio source on my iPod is dramatically different. CD sounds so much better, that I have actually considered ditching my iPod completely. I was astonished. I know a lot about audio, since I am a DJ and also deal with pro audio production software on a daily basis. So I knew that compressed audio formats won't sound as good. But I wasn't prepared for how dramatic the difference was vs. CD. So much more bass extension on CD. Not even Apple Lossless sounded anywhere close to the same. For years I have read articles writen in pro audio magazines where they take well-known audiophiles and have them listen to blind-tests with MP3 vs. CD.... and they claim the experts can't tell a difference. But I could tell a difference INSTANTLY. It was almost as if the audio files had a high-pass filter applied to them. If I had an RTA meter, I guess I could perform a serious test on the frequency response to be sure.... but I don't. Regardless, my ears (and butt) don't lie.... I could hear and feel the difference in the bass response.
(And this was not simply a volume issue)This may have more to do with the iPod itself. The iPod is not a high-end piece of audio gear. It is a disposable piece of crap which has been marketed brilliantly to take up a huge market share. But as for overall quality, they are garbage. So it could be that the sound quality differences I experienced are due to poor components. (i.e. cheap D/A converters)
I like the iPod for the convenience, but I honestly have been struggling with the decision to just return to using CDs. Sound quality is very important to me, particularly with the styles of music I listen to. So far I am still using the iPod, and I have refrained from using CDs in a hope that I can desensitize myself.
It really is a shame that as we move forward in a technological age, that major issues such as sound quality in professional recordings are moving backwards.... not forwards. You would think that as our technology improves, that we would see improvements.... but alas, this is not the case. It is very disappointing.
01-03-2007, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='373209' date='Jan 3 2007, 03:09 PM
CD sounds so much better, that I have actually considered ditching my iPod completely.
ABC
01-03-2007, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='373209' date='Jan 3 2007, 10:09 AM
I forgot to add another important sound quality issue.
I have tested the sound quality of various types of audio files on my iPods, and then compared them to the same music on CD. To do this, I took an audio CD and ripped it into various audio formats including AAC, MP3, and Apple Lossless. I then loaded all versions into my iPod, and took the original CD out to the car. I proceeded to compare each audio format against each other, and against the same song on CD. I have found that the bass response when comparing a CD to ANY audio source on my iPod is dramatically different. CD sounds so much better, that I have actually considered ditching my iPod completely. I was astonished. I know a lot about audio, since I am a DJ and also deal with pro audio production software on a daily basis. So I knew that compressed audio formats won't sound as good. But I wasn't prepared for how dramatic the difference was vs. CD. So much more bass extension on CD. Not even Apple Lossless sounded anywhere close to the same. For years I have read articles writen in pro audio magazines where they take well-known audiophiles and have them listen to blind-tests with MP3 vs. CD.... and they claim the experts can't tell a difference. But I could tell a difference INSTANTLY. It was almost as if the audio files had a high-pass filter applied to them. If I had an RTA meter, I guess I could perform a serious test on the frequency response to be sure.... but I don't. Regardless, my ears (and butt) don't lie.... I could hear and feel the difference in the bass response. (And this was not simply a volume issue)
This may have more to do with the iPod itself. The iPod is not a high-end piece of audio gear. It is a disposable piece of crap which has been marketed brilliantly to take up a huge market share. But as for overall quality, they are garbage. So it could be that the sound quality differences I experienced are due to poor components. (i.e. cheap D/A converters)
I like the iPod for the convenience, but I honestly have been struggling with the decision to just return to using CDs. Sound quality is very important to me, particularly with the styles of music I listen to. So far I am still using the iPod, and I have refrained from using CDs in a hope that I can desensitize myself.
It really is a shame that as we move forward in a technological age, that major issues such as sound quality in professional recordings are moving backwards.... not forwards. You would think that as our technology improves, that we would see improvements.... but alas, this is not the case. It is very disappointing.
I have tested the sound quality of various types of audio files on my iPods, and then compared them to the same music on CD. To do this, I took an audio CD and ripped it into various audio formats including AAC, MP3, and Apple Lossless. I then loaded all versions into my iPod, and took the original CD out to the car. I proceeded to compare each audio format against each other, and against the same song on CD. I have found that the bass response when comparing a CD to ANY audio source on my iPod is dramatically different. CD sounds so much better, that I have actually considered ditching my iPod completely. I was astonished. I know a lot about audio, since I am a DJ and also deal with pro audio production software on a daily basis. So I knew that compressed audio formats won't sound as good. But I wasn't prepared for how dramatic the difference was vs. CD. So much more bass extension on CD. Not even Apple Lossless sounded anywhere close to the same. For years I have read articles writen in pro audio magazines where they take well-known audiophiles and have them listen to blind-tests with MP3 vs. CD.... and they claim the experts can't tell a difference. But I could tell a difference INSTANTLY. It was almost as if the audio files had a high-pass filter applied to them. If I had an RTA meter, I guess I could perform a serious test on the frequency response to be sure.... but I don't. Regardless, my ears (and butt) don't lie.... I could hear and feel the difference in the bass response.
(And this was not simply a volume issue)This may have more to do with the iPod itself. The iPod is not a high-end piece of audio gear. It is a disposable piece of crap which has been marketed brilliantly to take up a huge market share. But as for overall quality, they are garbage. So it could be that the sound quality differences I experienced are due to poor components. (i.e. cheap D/A converters)
I like the iPod for the convenience, but I honestly have been struggling with the decision to just return to using CDs. Sound quality is very important to me, particularly with the styles of music I listen to. So far I am still using the iPod, and I have refrained from using CDs in a hope that I can desensitize myself.
It really is a shame that as we move forward in a technological age, that major issues such as sound quality in professional recordings are moving backwards.... not forwards. You would think that as our technology improves, that we would see improvements.... but alas, this is not the case. It is very disappointing.
01-03-2007, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='373209' date='Jan 3 2007, 03:09 PM
It really is a shame that as we move forward in a technological age, that major issues such as sound quality in professional recordings are moving backwards.... not forwards. You would think that as our technology improves, that we would see improvements.... but alas, this is not the case. It is very disappointing.
Another case of Gresham's law at work: bad sound drives away good sound
01-03-2007, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by baadaaboo' post='373218' date='Jan 3 2007, 03:44 PM
can you tell me what software did you use to convert your original CD music into MP3 for comparison? have you tried a different software and see if it makes some difference in sound quality? I'm really interested to know... because the sound track on CD are also digitized, just that MP3 is compressed digitize files...
It's then up to the algorithms developed by German hippies to guess at what we should be hearing.
That's why MP3 is inherently inferior - throw stuff away and guess what it was.
It's inferior Irrespective of software used and sample rates.
ABC
01-03-2007, 07:01 AM
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Just to reinforce the point - the maximum equivalent (commonly supported) data rate for MP3 is 320 kb/s; most files are encoded at 128 or 192 kb/s. CD works at 1410 kb/s... and it's widely acknowledged as far-from-perfect reproduction.
There's a difference between "recognisably the same noise" (or piece of music) and "a perfect reproduction of the noise" (or music)
There's a difference between "recognisably the same noise" (or piece of music) and "a perfect reproduction of the noise" (or music)