Aftermarket Processor ..JBL MS-8 Improve your stock sound easy..
05-17-2007, 03:07 PM
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Guys,
i just recieved the latest issue of car audio electronic in the mail today. i been waiting for this issue for awhile. it features a 325i demo car with the jbl ms-8.
the car won numerous awards at this year SBN nationals. Gary biggs a well known installer did the install.
here a link to the article of awards that the car won.
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/jbl-...427092009990006
It works like the pxe-h650 but supposedly better.
here a link to a forum that has more info on it..i been keeping an eye on that thread for awhile.
http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/sho...ead.php?t=63407
on the 325i they kept all the factory speakers and added couple of more bmw speakers to the car and from what i read it sounded awesome,
altough im not a fan of oem speakers. aftermarket is always better
people who are interested in upgrading their system sound without replacing speaker should look in to this.
i just recieved the latest issue of car audio electronic in the mail today. i been waiting for this issue for awhile. it features a 325i demo car with the jbl ms-8.
the car won numerous awards at this year SBN nationals. Gary biggs a well known installer did the install.
here a link to the article of awards that the car won.
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/jbl-...427092009990006
It works like the pxe-h650 but supposedly better.
here a link to a forum that has more info on it..i been keeping an eye on that thread for awhile.
http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/sho...ead.php?t=63407
on the 325i they kept all the factory speakers and added couple of more bmw speakers to the car and from what i read it sounded awesome,
altough im not a fan of oem speakers. aftermarket is always better
people who are interested in upgrading their system sound without replacing speaker should look in to this.
05-17-2007, 03:10 PM
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here a brief description of what it does and how it works.
MS-8 comes with the pre-amp/amp, a small display, a wireless remote control, a binaural microphone and a setup CD.
MS-8 will have 8 speaker level inputs, 8 line level inputs and an iPod input. The inputs are summed to provide a full-range 2-channel signal. If 6 or fewer inputs are required, then the last 2 can be used for an additional aux input.
There are no digital inputs. Why? Because the real benefit of digital input is "no noise". The downside to providing one is that for 99 percent of users, it's more hassle than it's worth and will cause a great deal of confusion. Not too many people understand that the connector doesn't determine the signal. What I mean is, if we put a toslink input and a user hooks up a toslink output, it will only work is the signal is compatible. DVD-Audio isn't available on a digital output, DVD signals are 48k, PCM is 44.1, home-made digital audio can be anything. The signal from tuners is often only output on the RCAs. For the vast majority of users, there is no benefit and too much opportunity for disappointment. As far as noise goes, our inputs are differential, so the commoon mode noise rejection is super high. There won't be any noise.
There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination.
Once the signals have been combined and un-EQed (for a flat 2-channel signal), the signal is processed with Logic7. That provides signal steering for a center channel (if you have one--if not, no problem) and processing for side and rear channels. L7 works on any 2-channel source and is our version is written for cars rather than live-in rooms, so it sounds MUCH better than any of the encoded formats in a car. The 2-channel downmix of any encoded DVD or DVD-A disc will play back in full surround. If good-old 2-channel is what you want, L7 is defeatable and the channels are fully configurable (there are 8 output channels and they can be pre-amp channels or powered channels--20W x 8 at 4 ohms, 30W at 2 ohms). You can have 3-way front, a center and a sub, 2-way front, rear and a sub...whatever you want to do.
The electronic crossover that's built in is fully configurable. You can assign any channel to be anything and it includes an EZ setup mode and an advanced mode. In EZ setup, you tell each channel the speaker location (front right, for example), then you tell it what speaker is connected (6" full-range). It sets the crossover point. In advanced mode, you tell the channel the location (right front) and then assign a filter type (HP, LP, BP) and then you set the filter frequency (you can assign any value between 20 at 20kHz) and the slope (1st-4th order).
After the crossover setup is completed, you move on to the EQ. You put on the microphones (they look like airline headphones but contain mics instead of speakers) and insert the CD. The display will give you some instructions to sit in the driver's seat and look at the left mirror and press "go". the unit will make a quick sweep of all 8 output channels. Then it will ask you to look forward and will make another sweep. Finally, it'll ask you to look to the right--another quick sweep. You can measure only the driver's seat or up to 4 seats. After the measurements are made (takes about 5 minutes) the unit will calculate the frequency response, level and arrival time for all 8 channels in each seat and crunch some numbers (another 30 seconds or so). It auto-tunes the car with 48 measurements per seat (up to 4 seats). It will output a tuning optimized for the driver, passenger, compromise between driver and passenger and one for the rear seats. If you use a center channel, both front seats will sound the same and the image will be great for rear seat passengers too.
After the auto-tuning is done, it will allow you to change the target curve. You can call up a 31-band EQ tool and make whatever changes you want. Unlike a regular EQ, you don't have to find an RTA and tune the car with the EQ, you just draw the curve you want to hear and press "go" and it does the work in implementing your curve. Then you can switch back and forth between your curve and the automatic one and continue making changes until you're satisfied. The curve you draw will always be adjusted in level so that the maximum number of bits are available to describe the signal (optimized for dynamic range). Once you save the curve, you can access any of the settings optimized for any seat using the remote control and the display.
You can turn Logic7 on and off, adjust the level of the center channel, use a balance control, fader, 3 or 11-band graphic EQ or adjust the level of the bass. THe bass control isn't a gain control for the subwoofer output, it's a filter that works with the crossover and applies the right amount of bass to ALL channels so the illusion of bass up front isn't destroyed when you turn up the bass.
Answers to some likely questions:
1. You don't have to use the unit's volume control. You can use the one in the head-unit if you want to.
2. Maximum input voltage on the RCAs is 2V and 15V on the speaker level inputs. The signal is converted directly into digital after the preamp buffer, so a high signal level is far less important in this device than in conventional ones. The input is fully differential, so there won't be noise. I suggest speaker level connections because they are COMPLETELY isolated from ground.
3. The automatic EQ isn't exactly parametric or graphic. It's a very powerful algorithm that works on the impulse response to adjust both time and frequency response. It's amazing and does in about 30 seconds what I can do with an 80 band parametric EQ, crossover, time alignment and a serious analyzer in about 3 days.
4. The display doesn't have to be mounted. If you don't want iPod control or the ability to adjust after setup, you can unplug the display and use MS-8 as a "black box".
5. The unit is small--about 8.5" x 11" x 2.5"
6. Price will be about $800...TBD
7. The software is updatable via USB and a PC.
It does what all other OEM integration tools do and what every other DSP (EQ, Crossover, Time alignment, 7.1) processors do, but it sounds better, is easier to use, is less expensive and is far more advanced in terms of DSP power. Best of all, it's a tool you can be successful with, rather than a whiz-bang collection of filters and adjustment possibilities that require a PhD in acousitcs to use.
MS-8 comes with the pre-amp/amp, a small display, a wireless remote control, a binaural microphone and a setup CD.
MS-8 will have 8 speaker level inputs, 8 line level inputs and an iPod input. The inputs are summed to provide a full-range 2-channel signal. If 6 or fewer inputs are required, then the last 2 can be used for an additional aux input.
There are no digital inputs. Why? Because the real benefit of digital input is "no noise". The downside to providing one is that for 99 percent of users, it's more hassle than it's worth and will cause a great deal of confusion. Not too many people understand that the connector doesn't determine the signal. What I mean is, if we put a toslink input and a user hooks up a toslink output, it will only work is the signal is compatible. DVD-Audio isn't available on a digital output, DVD signals are 48k, PCM is 44.1, home-made digital audio can be anything. The signal from tuners is often only output on the RCAs. For the vast majority of users, there is no benefit and too much opportunity for disappointment. As far as noise goes, our inputs are differential, so the commoon mode noise rejection is super high. There won't be any noise.
There are 8 input channels, so the 8 speaker level inputs and 8 line level inputs are basically in parallel. You can use any combination.
Once the signals have been combined and un-EQed (for a flat 2-channel signal), the signal is processed with Logic7. That provides signal steering for a center channel (if you have one--if not, no problem) and processing for side and rear channels. L7 works on any 2-channel source and is our version is written for cars rather than live-in rooms, so it sounds MUCH better than any of the encoded formats in a car. The 2-channel downmix of any encoded DVD or DVD-A disc will play back in full surround. If good-old 2-channel is what you want, L7 is defeatable and the channels are fully configurable (there are 8 output channels and they can be pre-amp channels or powered channels--20W x 8 at 4 ohms, 30W at 2 ohms). You can have 3-way front, a center and a sub, 2-way front, rear and a sub...whatever you want to do.
The electronic crossover that's built in is fully configurable. You can assign any channel to be anything and it includes an EZ setup mode and an advanced mode. In EZ setup, you tell each channel the speaker location (front right, for example), then you tell it what speaker is connected (6" full-range). It sets the crossover point. In advanced mode, you tell the channel the location (right front) and then assign a filter type (HP, LP, BP) and then you set the filter frequency (you can assign any value between 20 at 20kHz) and the slope (1st-4th order).
After the crossover setup is completed, you move on to the EQ. You put on the microphones (they look like airline headphones but contain mics instead of speakers) and insert the CD. The display will give you some instructions to sit in the driver's seat and look at the left mirror and press "go". the unit will make a quick sweep of all 8 output channels. Then it will ask you to look forward and will make another sweep. Finally, it'll ask you to look to the right--another quick sweep. You can measure only the driver's seat or up to 4 seats. After the measurements are made (takes about 5 minutes) the unit will calculate the frequency response, level and arrival time for all 8 channels in each seat and crunch some numbers (another 30 seconds or so). It auto-tunes the car with 48 measurements per seat (up to 4 seats). It will output a tuning optimized for the driver, passenger, compromise between driver and passenger and one for the rear seats. If you use a center channel, both front seats will sound the same and the image will be great for rear seat passengers too.
After the auto-tuning is done, it will allow you to change the target curve. You can call up a 31-band EQ tool and make whatever changes you want. Unlike a regular EQ, you don't have to find an RTA and tune the car with the EQ, you just draw the curve you want to hear and press "go" and it does the work in implementing your curve. Then you can switch back and forth between your curve and the automatic one and continue making changes until you're satisfied. The curve you draw will always be adjusted in level so that the maximum number of bits are available to describe the signal (optimized for dynamic range). Once you save the curve, you can access any of the settings optimized for any seat using the remote control and the display.
You can turn Logic7 on and off, adjust the level of the center channel, use a balance control, fader, 3 or 11-band graphic EQ or adjust the level of the bass. THe bass control isn't a gain control for the subwoofer output, it's a filter that works with the crossover and applies the right amount of bass to ALL channels so the illusion of bass up front isn't destroyed when you turn up the bass.
Answers to some likely questions:
1. You don't have to use the unit's volume control. You can use the one in the head-unit if you want to.
2. Maximum input voltage on the RCAs is 2V and 15V on the speaker level inputs. The signal is converted directly into digital after the preamp buffer, so a high signal level is far less important in this device than in conventional ones. The input is fully differential, so there won't be noise. I suggest speaker level connections because they are COMPLETELY isolated from ground.
3. The automatic EQ isn't exactly parametric or graphic. It's a very powerful algorithm that works on the impulse response to adjust both time and frequency response. It's amazing and does in about 30 seconds what I can do with an 80 band parametric EQ, crossover, time alignment and a serious analyzer in about 3 days.
4. The display doesn't have to be mounted. If you don't want iPod control or the ability to adjust after setup, you can unplug the display and use MS-8 as a "black box".
5. The unit is small--about 8.5" x 11" x 2.5"
6. Price will be about $800...TBD
7. The software is updatable via USB and a PC.
It does what all other OEM integration tools do and what every other DSP (EQ, Crossover, Time alignment, 7.1) processors do, but it sounds better, is easier to use, is less expensive and is far more advanced in terms of DSP power. Best of all, it's a tool you can be successful with, rather than a whiz-bang collection of filters and adjustment possibilities that require a PhD in acousitcs to use.
05-18-2007, 05:10 AM
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Hey nelson I talked to Gary about the JBL piece. they have no eta on when it will be out. He is a tech for Harman which owns JBL. I have not been a huge fan of JBL but this unit would have solve a lot of my issues with upgrading the system. I think it may be a toss up between it and the h650 except for the fact Alpine is not new to the processeing game. Nelson dont you have the 701? This would not benefit you to have. infact the h650 vs h701 you would lose a few channels. Granted the h650 is supposed to clean the signal like the h900 and h990 but if I understand correctly the signal prior to the factory amps is supposed to be clean unprocessed. This is one of the things Gary and I talked about.
05-18-2007, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by KU530' post='425836' date='May 18 2007, 09:10 AM
Hey nelson I talked to Gary about the JBL piece. they have no eta on when it will be out. He is a tech for Harman which owns JBL. I have not been a huge fan of JBL but this unit would have solve a lot of my issues with upgrading the system. I think it may be a toss up between it and the h650 except for the fact Alpine is not new to the processeing game. Nelson dont you have the 701? This would not benefit you to have. infact the h650 vs h701 you would lose a few channels. Granted the h650 is supposed to clean the signal like the h900 and h990 but if I understand correctly the signal prior to the factory amps is supposed to be clean unprocessed. This is one of the things Gary and I talked about.
on the last page of the thread a harman representative said that it was coming out in the fall.it was suppose to come out this past february. in matter of fact it came out as the FIX8 in 2006 CES event. they having some issues with the software.
as far as I know in our system unless you have the logic7 we only have one amplifier and is the one that powers the midbass speakers under the seat, everything else is powered by the MASK radio. my hub is connected from the front speak line outputs of the radio to the the audiocontrol lc8 LOC to the alpine hub. I'm getting a whine noise and I think is because of the lc8. I'm selling the h701 because the h650 will do the lc8 and the h701 job. the signal from the factory system is amplified and heavily equed. with the H650 or MS8 it should flattened the signal. I might be wrong but I think the H650 has the same number of output as the H701?
let me give alpine a quick call..
05-18-2007, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by nelson29' post='425903' date='May 18 2007, 11:46 AM
Hi Marquies,
on the last page of the thread a harman representative said that it was coming out in the fall.it was suppose to come out this past february. in matter of fact it came out as the FIX8 in 2006 CES event. they having some issues with the software.
as far as I know in our system unless you have the logic7 we only have one amplifier and is the one that powers the midbass speakers under the seat, everything else is powered by the MASK radio. my hub is connected from the front speak line outputs of the radio to the the audiocontrol lc8 LOC to the alpine hub. I'm getting a whine noise and I think is because of the lc8. I'm selling the h701 because the h650 will do the lc8 and the h701 job. the signal from the factory system is amplified and heavily equed. with the H650 or MS8 it should flattened the signal. I might be wrong but I think the H650 has the same number of output as the H701?
let me give alpine a quick call..
on the last page of the thread a harman representative said that it was coming out in the fall.it was suppose to come out this past february. in matter of fact it came out as the FIX8 in 2006 CES event. they having some issues with the software.
as far as I know in our system unless you have the logic7 we only have one amplifier and is the one that powers the midbass speakers under the seat, everything else is powered by the MASK radio. my hub is connected from the front speak line outputs of the radio to the the audiocontrol lc8 LOC to the alpine hub. I'm getting a whine noise and I think is because of the lc8. I'm selling the h701 because the h650 will do the lc8 and the h701 job. the signal from the factory system is amplified and heavily equed. with the H650 or MS8 it should flattened the signal. I might be wrong but I think the H650 has the same number of output as the H701?
let me give alpine a quick call..
funny thing i was about to email you regarding this article but you had already posted.
Hhahahaha, anyhow perhaps it would be beneficial for your use. Whats the pricing on it? I think im sticking with my H701 since im not running from stock unit and using my touchscreen for accessing the tuner.
good luck guys
KU i haven't forgotten about you will get pricing on the h900 soon
rj
05-18-2007, 09:32 AM
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My Ride: 2005 545i (SMG)
Titanium Gray
Black Interior, Anthracite Trim
M-tech kit
Sport Package
Premium Sound
Satellite Radio
Active Cruise
Comfort Seats
Navigation
Folding rear seats
Originally Posted by nelson29' post='425903' date='May 18 2007, 12:46 PM
Hi Marquies,
on the last page of the thread a harman representative said that it was coming out in the fall.it was suppose to come out this past february. in matter of fact it came out as the FIX8 in 2006 CES event. they having some issues with the software.
as far as I know in our system unless you have the logic7 we only have one amplifier and is the one that powers the midbass speakers under the seat, everything else is powered by the MASK radio. my hub is connected from the front speak line outputs of the radio to the the audiocontrol lc8 LOC to the alpine hub. I'm getting a whine noise and I think is because of the lc8. I'm selling the h701 because the h650 will do the lc8 and the h701 job. the signal from the factory system is amplified and heavily equed. with the H650 or MS8 it should flattened the signal. I might be wrong but I think the H650 has the same number of output as the H701?
let me give alpine a quick call..
on the last page of the thread a harman representative said that it was coming out in the fall.it was suppose to come out this past february. in matter of fact it came out as the FIX8 in 2006 CES event. they having some issues with the software.
as far as I know in our system unless you have the logic7 we only have one amplifier and is the one that powers the midbass speakers under the seat, everything else is powered by the MASK radio. my hub is connected from the front speak line outputs of the radio to the the audiocontrol lc8 LOC to the alpine hub. I'm getting a whine noise and I think is because of the lc8. I'm selling the h701 because the h650 will do the lc8 and the h701 job. the signal from the factory system is amplified and heavily equed. with the H650 or MS8 it should flattened the signal. I might be wrong but I think the H650 has the same number of output as the H701?
let me give alpine a quick call..
The whine noise is probably just alternator noise. BMW electrical systems are absolute shit, and nearly impossible to get clean power.
05-18-2007, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='425926' date='May 18 2007, 12:32 PM
The whine noise is probably just alternator noise. BMW electrical systems are absolute shit, and nearly impossible to get clean power.
I agree with Subterfuse.
I'm hoping i have no issues with my set up it will be ready to test and powered up over the weekend with fabbing being done hopefully monday or tuesday.
rj
05-18-2007, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by subterFUSE' post='425926' date='May 18 2007, 01:32 PM
The whine noise is probably just alternator noise. BMW electrical systems are absolute shit, and nearly impossible to get clean power.
05-18-2007, 09:58 AM
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RJ,
You will be fine because you not using the stock radio. I really don't think you will have any noise issues with your set up. I will be suprise if you do. let cross our fingers..
You will be fine because you not using the stock radio. I really don't think you will have any noise issues with your set up. I will be suprise if you do. let cross our fingers..
05-18-2007, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by nelson29' post='425939' date='May 18 2007, 12:58 PM
RJ,
You will be fine because you not using the stock radio. I really don't think you will have any noise issues with your set up. I will be suprise if you do. let cross our fingers..
You will be fine because you not using the stock radio. I really don't think you will have any noise issues with your set up. I will be suprise if you do. let cross our fingers..
Good luck Nelson,
i would love to see the pics of that JBL demo car!!!