Originally Posted by dlevi67' post='371384' date='Dec 27 2006, 05:52 AM

Yes, I do.

Quality of construction is one thing, quality of engineering and design quite another. And I'm far from convinced that a BMW built in Spartanburg is intrinsically less well built than one coming out of Johannesburg or Dingolfing.

Originally Posted by 550isport' post='371821' date='Dec 28 2006, 06:50 PM

X5 (spartanburg) owner here saying location may be a factor. I have owned 3, 5, 7 and X5. Seems like the parts manufactured here in the U.S. to BMW specs are the culprit. The windshield pits much quicker on the X5 than on 7 or 3 (despite slightly lower average highway speeds in the X5). Interior trim far less resistant to wear. I took a tour of Spartanburg. All of the important items (engine, transmission, suspension subframes) come pre-assembled from Europe. Its a German chassis with an American body. Even the paint job seems of a lower quality (which is not to say low, just lower).

Regards, Happy New Year
DRP

Originally Posted by pennetta' post='371902' date='Dec 28 2006, 11:09 PM

Manufacturing is tough in the US because the cost of living is very high so its difficult for American car companies to find workers in the needed pay scale. Unions are a symptom of this and continue to create financial problems for the US car companies.
European cars have been built in their native countries for many years, this means the bugs have been worked out of the manufacturing process. BMW opened in South Carolina not that long ago so there are things to be worked out and thus quality would suffer no matter where the plant is built.
The US is the leader in computer, medical, aerospace and military equipment and has a GDP of $13 trillion. Nobody touches Microsoft for software and there aren't even non-US competitors to Intel and AMD for microprocessors. All this and we are only 200 years old.

Originally Posted by dlevi67' post='371912' date='Dec 28 2006, 06:37 PM

3. The cost of manufacturing - and specifically the labour component - is probably higher in Germany than in the US. If anything because of the very generous welfare and healthcare system, which is paid for primarily through taxation (payroll taxes + income tax). And the cost of living is definitely considerably higher in Western Europe than in the US - even without the recent weak dollar.

Originally Posted by 550isport' post='369534' date='Dec 20 2006, 11:15 AM

This iss an odd post (as I sit here on hold long-distance). This morning a friend and I were talking about the new SRT cars and how, despite their objective strenghts, the ones we have sampled (300, Cherokee and Charger) remain pretty American in terms of the feel behind the wheel. I told him about my experience this past Thanksgiving weekend when I had reserved an Audi rental but there were none available and they gave me a 2006 Corvette convertible w/6 speed auto and paddles on the wheel instead. My wife was scared to death of riding in the thing. BTW my wife drives our X5 and she really is a smooth and fast driver by any measure. She learned to drive in Sao Paulo Brazil. So, a day later we got a call from Hertz that the Audi A4 cabrio we reserved was back in and we returned the vette immediately. Going from the vette to the Audi was like ditching a warm water bottle off your bike for an ice cold Coke in a frosty glass bottle. What a relief. So in my book, power alone only does so much to make a car fun. But lets get back to the original question...why is it that the euros build cars (even their economy cars) that have that certain feeling that even Corvettes and SRTs arguably lack?

My friend had an interesting answer this morning. He suggested that European society generally accepts the reality of high speed automotive travel. Thus their engineers plan on it and their cars are accordingly designed to accomodate sustained high speed travel (over say 90 mph). So he argued, precision is necessary to get engines, brakes, suspensions etc... to safely function at higher speeds. In essence, he is asserting that this precision gives rise to a feeling of superior build quality and ride quality in euro cars but is in fact merely a necessary byproduct of their ability to maintain higher average speeds.

I never though of it that way. I just assumed American cars were cheap and the design budgets were very small. Maybe its a little of both?

Any thoughts on this topic??

Originally Posted by pennetta' post='371929' date='Dec 29 2006, 01:21 AM

I did a google search and found a number of sites stating that US auto manufacturing jobs costs manufacturers $65 per hour ($23 hrly plus $42 in current and legacy benefits). This seems ridiculolus but was stated for GM and Delphi. Whats the costs in Germany?
By the way thanks for not flaming me, I did get a little patriotic up there.

Originally Posted by dlevi67' post='372240' date='Dec 30 2006, 01:41 AM

To this, add 40% social costs, plus ~10% benefits......I did not expect benefits to be nearly 200% of salary costs