Uh Oh...another ticking 545i?
04-12-2010, 10:39 AM
#21
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i agree with the oil starvation possibility but keep in mind that the visc of 50wt oil is way less at 100c than 5wt oil is at 40c. my 545 has a very slight cold condition tick on the left side of the engine same as yours, goes away when its hot 5 to 10 mins later, and sounds perfect thereafter. the tick is very slight and doesn't worry me too much as it is, but wonder if its a distant early warning of a major issue.
1. a low visc oil would have an easier time entering the hydraulic lifter through the groove plenum on its OD
2. a high visc oil would have a harder time being squeezed out of the lifter and presumably keep a tighter gap on the moving elements.
but then again when the bmw 5w-30 oil in my car now gets hot and thin the ticking goes away.....damn confusing. maybe the first point is correct, or maybe its the thermal expansion of the elements that closes the gaps and makes it quiet. DAMN!
i am going to do an experiment. the oil in my car has 4k on it. this weekend i'm going to dump it, and put in mobil 5w-50 and let you know what happens.
i think those low visc oils are optimized for fuel consumption at the expense of engine protection. i was an engineer for 11 years working on fluid dynamic bearings for hard drive motors, we were always coming out with some new low visc oils to reduce the run current on the motor, and what do you know, the wear rates on the bearing was always worse by a micron or two. so we put on all kinds of fancy coatings DLC, SiN, etc to compensate for thin oils, just to save a few milliwatts of power.
yep z32 TT's are fabulous. my last one, a 1991, had 142k on the original engine and turbos when i sold it 2 months ago, used mobil 15-50 forever on it. only thing ever went wrong with that car was a wheel bearing! that engine made the same or less valve train noise than my 545 does with 37k on it. i wonder everyday if i've swapped reliability for bling bling and an idrive?
1. a low visc oil would have an easier time entering the hydraulic lifter through the groove plenum on its OD
2. a high visc oil would have a harder time being squeezed out of the lifter and presumably keep a tighter gap on the moving elements.
but then again when the bmw 5w-30 oil in my car now gets hot and thin the ticking goes away.....damn confusing. maybe the first point is correct, or maybe its the thermal expansion of the elements that closes the gaps and makes it quiet. DAMN!
i am going to do an experiment. the oil in my car has 4k on it. this weekend i'm going to dump it, and put in mobil 5w-50 and let you know what happens.
i think those low visc oils are optimized for fuel consumption at the expense of engine protection. i was an engineer for 11 years working on fluid dynamic bearings for hard drive motors, we were always coming out with some new low visc oils to reduce the run current on the motor, and what do you know, the wear rates on the bearing was always worse by a micron or two. so we put on all kinds of fancy coatings DLC, SiN, etc to compensate for thin oils, just to save a few milliwatts of power.
yep z32 TT's are fabulous. my last one, a 1991, had 142k on the original engine and turbos when i sold it 2 months ago, used mobil 15-50 forever on it. only thing ever went wrong with that car was a wheel bearing! that engine made the same or less valve train noise than my 545 does with 37k on it. i wonder everyday if i've swapped reliability for bling bling and an idrive?
Did you get a chance to change your oil over the weekend?
04-12-2010, 01:13 PM
#22
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my filter does not arrive until tomorrow.
the guy at the parts store scared me away from using 5w-50, at least temporarily. i had 2 cases of it sitting on the counter ready to buy, and starting talking to him about it and he gave me the old small bearing clearances and thin oil argument....so i spooked.... paid for my filter and walked out confused.....i rarely ever listen to guys at the parts store for obvious reasons but i'm very indecisive about this issue and it didn't take much to confuse me again...thought i had my mind made up and was ready to do this experiment. i know my car has the 5-30 bmw oil in it, which is rebranded castrol correct, roughly equiv to mobil 0-30, or so i've read.
one argument could be that the 5w oil pumps into the narrow clearances well enough when its 10 deg below freezing, why wouldn't a higher visc oil do the same whens it 50 deg above zero.........never gets below freezing where i live. point is the 0 or 5-30 oils might have a higher visc at 22F than the 5-50 does at 50F, so the narrow gap argument may not apply on a startup condition.
these values are from the mobil website:
5w-30 visc at 40 and 100c resp; 64.8,11.3
5w-50 visc at 40 and 100c resp; 104.6,17.4
i also must consider the effect of visc on the vanos hydraulics.
damn! i really don't know what to do. i don't care about the gas mileage too much and am more interested in film strength, engine protection, and that cold tick.
M5's use 10w-60.....does the 545 have tighter bearing gaps, i seriously doubt it!
the guy at the parts store scared me away from using 5w-50, at least temporarily. i had 2 cases of it sitting on the counter ready to buy, and starting talking to him about it and he gave me the old small bearing clearances and thin oil argument....so i spooked.... paid for my filter and walked out confused.....i rarely ever listen to guys at the parts store for obvious reasons but i'm very indecisive about this issue and it didn't take much to confuse me again...thought i had my mind made up and was ready to do this experiment. i know my car has the 5-30 bmw oil in it, which is rebranded castrol correct, roughly equiv to mobil 0-30, or so i've read.
one argument could be that the 5w oil pumps into the narrow clearances well enough when its 10 deg below freezing, why wouldn't a higher visc oil do the same whens it 50 deg above zero.........never gets below freezing where i live. point is the 0 or 5-30 oils might have a higher visc at 22F than the 5-50 does at 50F, so the narrow gap argument may not apply on a startup condition.
these values are from the mobil website:
5w-30 visc at 40 and 100c resp; 64.8,11.3
5w-50 visc at 40 and 100c resp; 104.6,17.4
i also must consider the effect of visc on the vanos hydraulics.
damn! i really don't know what to do. i don't care about the gas mileage too much and am more interested in film strength, engine protection, and that cold tick.
M5's use 10w-60.....does the 545 have tighter bearing gaps, i seriously doubt it!
04-12-2010, 02:36 PM
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i think that you're overthinking the oil viscocity. you cant compare the oil from a 550 or 545 engine to the m5. they are built different.
the key to longer engine life is to do frequent oil changes, and dont run the motor hard until its warmed up. nothing is worse for an engine than revving it up or driving it hard when its cold.
thinner oils get to the valves and cams faster on start-up, put less strain on the oil pump, give you more power and better economy.
find me a bmw engine, that had the proper maintenance, where the bearings wore out due to insufficient oil protection.
the key to longer engine life is to do frequent oil changes, and dont run the motor hard until its warmed up. nothing is worse for an engine than revving it up or driving it hard when its cold.
thinner oils get to the valves and cams faster on start-up, put less strain on the oil pump, give you more power and better economy.
find me a bmw engine, that had the proper maintenance, where the bearings wore out due to insufficient oil protection.
04-12-2010, 02:54 PM
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i think that you're overthinking the oil viscocity. you cant compare the oil from a 550 or 545 engine to the m5. they are built different.
the key to longer engine life is to do frequent oil changes, and dont run the motor hard until its warmed up. nothing is worse for an engine than revving it up or driving it hard when its cold.
thinner oils get to the valves and cams faster on start-up, put less strain on the oil pump, give you more power and better economy.
find me a bmw engine, that had the proper maintenance, where the bearings wore out due to insufficient oil protection.
the key to longer engine life is to do frequent oil changes, and dont run the motor hard until its warmed up. nothing is worse for an engine than revving it up or driving it hard when its cold.
thinner oils get to the valves and cams faster on start-up, put less strain on the oil pump, give you more power and better economy.
find me a bmw engine, that had the proper maintenance, where the bearings wore out due to insufficient oil protection.
i agree with most of what you wrote but.....didn't some guy just post a few weeks back with an engine that grenaded at 68K, he used bmw 5wt oil at the dealer recommended intervals. there has also been quite a few posts about valve noise, which is why this thread was started. i'm just trying to overthink of a way to get rid of the tick at cold temps.
i plan to change my oil every 6 or 7k, and i never gouge on it when its cold.
i don't believe its possible to overthink anything, if engineers didn't overthink we'd be driving steam powered cars, or model T's at best.
04-12-2010, 03:24 PM
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i agree with most of what you wrote but.....didn't some guy just post a few weeks back with an engine that grenaded at 68K, he used bmw 5wt oil at the dealer recommended intervals. there has also been quite a few posts about valve noise, which is why this thread was started. i'm just trying to overthink of a way to get rid of the tick at cold temps.
i plan to change my oil every 6 or 7k, and i never gouge on it when its cold.
i don't believe its possible to overthink anything, if engineers didn't overthink we'd be driving steam powered cars, or model T's at best.
i plan to change my oil every 6 or 7k, and i never gouge on it when its cold.
i don't believe its possible to overthink anything, if engineers didn't overthink we'd be driving steam powered cars, or model T's at best.
and using a thicker oil to cover up a noise doesnt sound like a good idea, unless you're trying to sell your car. 
04-12-2010, 03:28 PM
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ok, mobil 5w-30 it is.
i still think they want the low visc oil just to satisfy some fuel economy standard.
i still think they want the low visc oil just to satisfy some fuel economy standard.
04-12-2010, 03:53 PM
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Had the same problem, mine was air in the Hydraulic lifter. I talked to a friend of mine who is a BMW mechanic and he said it is a very common problem in a lot of 5 series.
04-12-2010, 04:01 PM
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and if you're wondering why the 40 weight oil by mobil? it's because mobil's 0w-40 is on the lower end of the 40 weight scale, while mobil's 5w-30 is on the lower end of the 30 weight scale. in other words, mobil 0w-40 is a lighter 40 weight oil, and is closer to bmw's specs of a heavier 30 weight oil vs mobil's low 30 weight oil.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ngineOils.aspx
Castrol Syntec European Formula SAE 0W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30
Mobil 1 SAE 0W-40
Pennzoil Platinum European Formula Ultra SAE 5W-30
Valvoline SynPower SAE 5W-30
04-12-2010, 04:43 PM
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very interesting, thanks for the tip.
kinematic and dynamic visc data from mobil
40,100c for 0w-40 78.3; 14; 3.7
40,100c for 5w-30 64.8; 11.3; 3.09
40,100c for 10w-30 62; 10.0; 3.14
40,100c for 5w-50 104.6; 17.4; 4.3
i like to look at the last of the 3 values, the dynamic visc, the fluid's resistance to deformation, in pascal seconds.
from this data i would much rather use the 0w-40.
i would love to see some viscosity retention numbers for these 4 oils. been on bob is the oil guy website, no data comparing them all. but what i have seen is that mobil syn oils have by far the best visc retention compared to the other brands. they seem to lose most of their visc in the first 1000 miles and remain relatively flat after that, where many other oils continue to decline.
i know i'm not going to use castrol, i don't think its true syn like mobil, just a mega refined, fossil with loads of additives. there were some legal issues years ago about castrol making synthetic claims and mobil sued them, don't know the outcome.
there is so much hype, marketing, and personal opinions (mobil is my fav) when studying engine oils.
it ALWAYS comes back to what you already said, just change the oil often and drive the b*tch!
thanks
kinematic and dynamic visc data from mobil
40,100c for 0w-40 78.3; 14; 3.7
40,100c for 5w-30 64.8; 11.3; 3.09
40,100c for 10w-30 62; 10.0; 3.14
40,100c for 5w-50 104.6; 17.4; 4.3
i like to look at the last of the 3 values, the dynamic visc, the fluid's resistance to deformation, in pascal seconds.
from this data i would much rather use the 0w-40.
i would love to see some viscosity retention numbers for these 4 oils. been on bob is the oil guy website, no data comparing them all. but what i have seen is that mobil syn oils have by far the best visc retention compared to the other brands. they seem to lose most of their visc in the first 1000 miles and remain relatively flat after that, where many other oils continue to decline.
i know i'm not going to use castrol, i don't think its true syn like mobil, just a mega refined, fossil with loads of additives. there were some legal issues years ago about castrol making synthetic claims and mobil sued them, don't know the outcome.
there is so much hype, marketing, and personal opinions (mobil is my fav) when studying engine oils.
it ALWAYS comes back to what you already said, just change the oil often and drive the b*tch!
thanks
the correct mobil1 oil is 0w-40
and if you're wondering why the 40 weight oil by mobil? it's because mobil's 0w-40 is on the lower end of the 40 weight scale, while mobil's 5w-30 is on the lower end of the 30 weight scale. in other words, mobil 0w-40 is a lighter 40 weight oil, and is closer to bmw's specs of a heavier 30 weight oil vs mobil's low 30 weight oil.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ngineOils.aspx
and if you're wondering why the 40 weight oil by mobil? it's because mobil's 0w-40 is on the lower end of the 40 weight scale, while mobil's 5w-30 is on the lower end of the 30 weight scale. in other words, mobil 0w-40 is a lighter 40 weight oil, and is closer to bmw's specs of a heavier 30 weight oil vs mobil's low 30 weight oil.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ngineOils.aspx
04-14-2010, 09:04 AM
#30
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