swajames

Ricracing, there is clearly some logic in what you say but the CA emission regulations are amongst the toughest around and the BMW diesels can't pass them but the US market gas engines do (for example we have an extra filter that isn't on Euro spec models). There is also the often forgotten reality that it takes much more energy (I've seen numbers quoting 20 to 25% more energy) to make a gallon of diesel fuel compared to a gallon of gasoline - so to some degree diesel efficiencies are paying back earlier supply chain inefficiences. Responding to your point about attitude, I suspect the position in the US has as much to with the diesels of the past which were nothing like a modern diesel but created a poor market perception. In Europe (I'm British) market realities, different tax policies and gas prices being what they are drive acceptance of something that given a choice would not normally be a preference. No one would out of choice want to drive one of the old school low capacity non turbo charged diesels. That doesn't apply now but in Europe it has been an evolution as each generation has got better and better. To get diesels back in the US is likely to take a revolution, and the new BMW diesels are certainly capable of providing that. Market perceptions are also what drove Renault, Alfa, Rover etc out of the US market for similar reasons - and two of the three are understood to be planning to come back with much stronger products that will probably do very well. I don't buy the argument that low gas prices drive these decisions, that was only by reference to other country costs - whether something is cheap or expensive is relevant more to domestic markets. US is all about product first and if the older diesels had been as much of a match for the gasoline engines of the day as the newer diesels are we wouldn't be having this debate and I'd be able to buy a 535d here for less than the V8 version! Hopefully soon... Certainly not intending to make excuses for gas or bash diesel but things aren't always as simple they can sometimes seem. You're lucky to have the choice, I suspect the US will in the next year or two, and there are likely to be some changes in perception!

Ricracing

Dear swajames,

Good, wise and nice post.

Diesel fuel is a more refined brand of oil, thats thrue and of course that will consume some more energy to produce.

But the old saying that "Nothing can beat cubic inches" has come to a end.
Turbo-diesels with new electronics can prove that wrong.
But I must also say that ie BMW:s new twin-turbo 3.0 litre sixinline N53B35 is a high-tech
enigine. More than 300 hp and a torgue of 400 Nm at 1300-5000 rpm, consuming only a
avarage of 9,5 l / 100km is great.
The CO2 figures have not yet been seen.

It's also true that only now the diesels have come out with the particle filter wich makes them clean.
Old diesels can not even be compared but the thruth is that a modern diesel engine runs more efficient than a modern gas one (energy to power).

What comes to CO2 emissions the diesels are much cleaner, ie 530iA 224 g/km and the 530dA 200 g/km.
Both cars are about as fast but the 530dA uses about 7,5 l/100 km and the 530iA 9,3 l/100 km.

Tax policy is important. That's why I still drive a gasoline car. Overhere the diesel tax is per year so heavy, so I would need to drive more than 30,000 km's a year to get any benefit.

But the car itself is not more pricy overhere: 530iA €68110 and the 530dA €67960.
This discussion has nothing to do the our taxation, (close to $90,000 is sick!)

I'm also sure that M-B's example will inspire BMW and other brands as well to bring
fine diesel cars to your market.

It will also be interesting to see how hybrids and hydrogen cars will effect the market.

But I also hope that US Forums members, as good earning smart people, could also
help the world by being trendsetters.

Cheers,
Riku

aybeesea

This "reality" is difficult to forget since some never knew it.

My understanding was that diesel was an earlier fraction of the distillation and refinement of petroleum than gasoline therefore LESS energy is required..Additionally I know of only ONE market in EU where diesel has mysteriously exceeded the price of Unleaded and that's UK.

Take away taxes and resellers market exploitation, and (another forgotten reality?) the supply price of diesel to resllers worldwide is lower than unleaded.

Go figure how the "energy to make a gallon" is accounted for...
ABC

swajames

We're in total agreement Ric. Thank you for your post too.

aybeesea

Quote from UK AA
"Several countries charge relatively lower duty rates on diesel giving the impression that diesel fuel is cheaper in these countries compared to the UK.

The refinery process splits crude oil into a range of products from gas (propane and butane) and petrol at the lighter end of the density range to heavy fuel oil (used by ships, power station etc.) and bitumen at the heavy end. Diesel is typically made from kerosene and gas oil components which are heavier than the petrol components. The different component products are internationally traded and subject to their own supply and demand dynamics.

The international wholesale price for petrol is largely dependent on the demand for this transportation fuel, whereas the price for gas oil is dependent on demand in both the transportation and heating fuel sectors. Kerosene is also traded internationally and is used for aviation/jet fuel as well as for domestic heating; it too is therefore subject to its own supply/demand forces.

In winter there is generally lower demand for petrol and higher demand for gas oil, particularly in the US for heating. This tends to increase the relative price of diesel at this time of year. There is a general shortage of diesel across Europe at the moment and the UK doesn't have refinery capacity to meet its own diesel needs.

Other factors at play include increasing demand for diesel in the UK and the Europe wide change of specification to sulphur free from the beginning of 2005"

You may also be interested in this "European" price comparison document for April 2006.

Click here for the Word document

ABC

swajames

I'm not too sure what this got to do with the total cost/energy needed to produce any specific fuel, which isn't necessarily related to the cost at the pump. There's an article here which has some opinion on the production processes suggesting that it can in some cases take more oil and creates more greenhouse gases to produce a gallon of diesel (this is primarily the point I was making)

http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/catalys...or-thought.html

Like you I take some of this stuff with a pinch of salt, but I wasn't really talking about cost, more the process of getting the fuel to the customer.

aybeesea

Your quoted article doesn't actually agree with what your are saying.

The artice claims 25% more oil needed to produce diesel to "Tier 2 Standards". It doesn't claim anything about existing Diesel fuel. Regarding the greenhouse gases referred to, they are NOT associated with the production, rather the combustion of this type of fuel.

As for getting diesel or gasoline "to the customer" I honestly don't understand why one would be more expensive than the other!

Thanks for your patience with me!

Regards,

ABC

swajames

I think it does, the diesel we don't yet get here is more akin to the kind you already get in Europe and that's what they are discussing. These formulations are what's needed to help meet the emissions rules (which in fairness are skewed, and are in some respects biased against diesels). If it does indeed take more oil to create one specific type of fuel over another that's where the total cost of getting the gas to the pump may be different. My point was simply that if it takes more more oil to manufacture one gallon of fuel, then to some degree that ought to be taken into account at the business end as well. As for the bigger picture regarding the diesel engines in general we're likely to be in violent agreement on that and I'm certainly looking forward to getting the BMW diesels out here.

aybeesea

<_<

ABC

pedrollo

A European spec 535d has oxidising catalysts and particle filters and will meet the emissions standards Stateside no problem when running on European diesel (you could eat your dinner off the inside of my tailpipes ). They need low sulphur fuel however as sulphur kills the cats, and so engines that will run on your current diesel fuel can't have these systems and wont meet current emissions.

Not sure about the amount of energy needed to provide a gallon of diesel/petrol, but my understanding was that it was a supply and demand issue. Every gallon of crude provides a certain percentage of each component, and the fraction that diesel comes out of is the one that drives demand. Petrol by comparison is surplus. If everyone drove a diesel we would be using more crude, more refinery capacity (and therefore energy), and someone would have to think of a new use for the petrol fraction or else dump it!

Politically, diesel will never be allowed to displace petrol, so the petrol/diesel debate (be thankful you don't have THAT in the States ) will continue for a good while yet.