Are the paddles 'overkill' for big diesel?
01-17-2007, 01:31 AM
#21
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To add to the comments posted.
Yes, the 535d has so much torque that it could easily make do with fewer gears if performance were the only issue (economy is another matter).
However, with my 535d I really miss the paddles I was used to on big Audis. For town and motorway work I am reasonably happy with D / DS. However, with country driving (and I use a lot of cross country routes) I find I have to use M for the ultimate control if driving fast. For me the car can never replace my decisions over which gear to be in to give just the right balance into and through a bend. The existing setup is poor in that you have to take a hand off the wheel to use manual. Add to that the counter-intuitive forward to change down / back to change up that BMW currently use (unlike others) and you have a recipe for confusion at best when swapping cars.
My wife has a Golf 2.0l 140 TDI with twin clutch and that thing is a little gem - it changes faster than I ever could and even blips the throttle on downwards shifts. It hasn't got paddles but it does have the shift the right way round (back to change down).
The current BMW manual shift speed is ssslllloooowwwww.........and so out of character with the sporting nature of the beast. Yes, I could change to the new version but I've only has mine for 3 months and intend to keep for 3 years.
Yes, the 535d has so much torque that it could easily make do with fewer gears if performance were the only issue (economy is another matter).
However, with my 535d I really miss the paddles I was used to on big Audis. For town and motorway work I am reasonably happy with D / DS. However, with country driving (and I use a lot of cross country routes) I find I have to use M for the ultimate control if driving fast. For me the car can never replace my decisions over which gear to be in to give just the right balance into and through a bend. The existing setup is poor in that you have to take a hand off the wheel to use manual. Add to that the counter-intuitive forward to change down / back to change up that BMW currently use (unlike others) and you have a recipe for confusion at best when swapping cars.
My wife has a Golf 2.0l 140 TDI with twin clutch and that thing is a little gem - it changes faster than I ever could and even blips the throttle on downwards shifts. It hasn't got paddles but it does have the shift the right way round (back to change down).
The current BMW manual shift speed is ssslllloooowwwww.........and so out of character with the sporting nature of the beast. Yes, I could change to the new version but I've only has mine for 3 months and intend to keep for 3 years.
01-17-2007, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by red-max' post='379414' date='Jan 17 2007, 09:54 AM
On my E60 530d, I did use manual mode, and I still use it on my 335d (which has paddle shifts).
I find that the "improved" Steptronic (and possibly the extra power of the 335d over the 530d) actually means that D and DS modes are pretty good for most normal driving. I tend to drive in D and move the lever over to DS for overtaking, then go back to D.
I tend to use manual mode on long straight roads, dual carriageways and motorways, and I do now use the paddles to shift, mostly between M5 and M6 and back. I prefer to be able to flip down a gear to slow down rather than keep braking - that's the way I used to drive a manual car.
Are the paddles necessary? No, but they are useful, and I'm glad I have them. I don't use them on twisty roads or in "complex" traffic situations though - I prefer to put it in DS and concentrate on what I'm doing, leave the transmission to take care of itself.
I find that the "improved" Steptronic (and possibly the extra power of the 335d over the 530d) actually means that D and DS modes are pretty good for most normal driving. I tend to drive in D and move the lever over to DS for overtaking, then go back to D.
I tend to use manual mode on long straight roads, dual carriageways and motorways, and I do now use the paddles to shift, mostly between M5 and M6 and back. I prefer to be able to flip down a gear to slow down rather than keep braking - that's the way I used to drive a manual car.
Are the paddles necessary? No, but they are useful, and I'm glad I have them. I don't use them on twisty roads or in "complex" traffic situations though - I prefer to put it in DS and concentrate on what I'm doing, leave the transmission to take care of itself.
Does the paddle-shift auto 335d exhibit the same kind of scary transmission slam and hesitancy that 535d (and 530d and even 550i) drivers are ranting about.
Having come from a 530d, you are probably a good person to ask...
01-17-2007, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Heel n' post='379422' date='Jan 17 2007, 10:31 AM
[snip]The existing setup is poor in that you have to take a hand off the wheel to use manual. Add to that the counter-intuitive forward to change down / back to change up that BMW currently use (unlike others) and you have a recipe for confusion at best when swapping cars.
My wife has a Golf 2.0l 140 TDI with twin clutch and that thing is a little gem - it changes faster than I ever could and even blips the throttle on downwards shifts. It hasn't got paddles but it does have the shift the right way round (back to change down).
The current BMW manual shift speed is ssslllloooowwwww.........and so out of character with the sporting nature of the beast. Yes, I could change to the new version but I've only has mine for 3 months and intend to keep for 3 years.
My wife has a Golf 2.0l 140 TDI with twin clutch and that thing is a little gem - it changes faster than I ever could and even blips the throttle on downwards shifts. It hasn't got paddles but it does have the shift the right way round (back to change down).
The current BMW manual shift speed is ssslllloooowwwww.........and so out of character with the sporting nature of the beast. Yes, I could change to the new version but I've only has mine for 3 months and intend to keep for 3 years.
Re: the direction of lever to up/downshift. I would argue that it's more "intuitive" the BMW way - weight transfers backward when accelerating (thus upshifting) and forwards when decelerating (downshifting). The real problem is that - since BMW changed in 2001 - everybody else has changed the other way. If it really bothers you, it's literally just a question of swapping two wires.
Entirely agree on the slowness; I think it's purely electronic slowness, as the graphs posted on this forum show that the actual mechanical part of the change is reasonably fast (< 1s).
01-17-2007, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dlevi67' post='379433' date='Jan 17 2007, 11:17 AM
Maybe it's poor, but it's also normal. There's a whole host of other "poor" things that we take for granted in cars, but they have become a custom. Starting from the internal combustion engine.
ABC
01-17-2007, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by aybeesea' post='379454' date='Jan 17 2007, 12:10 PM
Evolution rather than revolution, eh?
We move in circles.
01-17-2007, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Raighne' post='379431' date='Jan 17 2007, 11:12 AM
red-max... maybe you have commented on this subject before but I am really interested (and others too, I think)...
Does the paddle-shift auto 335d exhibit the same kind of scary transmission slam and hesitancy that 535d (and 530d and even 550i) drivers are ranting about.
Having come from a 530d, you are probably a good person to ask...
Does the paddle-shift auto 335d exhibit the same kind of scary transmission slam and hesitancy that 535d (and 530d and even 550i) drivers are ranting about.
Having come from a 530d, you are probably a good person to ask...
I would say that the "improved" Steptronic is improved (that is comparing to my 2004 E60 530d), but it is still not perfect. It's fine for most daily driving, but on reflection I think it does spoil the driver enjoyment factor for me - you never get that feeling of being 100% in control, and I wonder if I should have test-driven the 330d manual or even 335i manual before buying another Steptronic. However, in traffic it definitely saves pumping the clutch, so that's the trade-off.
Where the Steptronic still fails (for me) is in two places. First, when braking to a standstill (or almost to a standstill) at a junction, there is a lag when stepping on the gas and the car pulling away. I don't know if this is in the transmission or in the BMW brake-assist logic (and it might be both), but either way I feel this, and it's annoying. Secondly, the Steptronic doesn't seem optimised for the big diesel - in D it still downshifts unnecessarily when you push on the gas (much less so in DS) and sometimes in D it seems to hold the revs too high for too long, even when I back off the throttle. The paddle shifters can be used in D mode to avoid the downshift induced lag (you can flip the paddle to shift down yourself in preparation for accelerating) but this leaves you in a temporary M mode which times out and goes back to D after a few seconds. I have tried this a few times, but it doesn't seem to work as well as I had hoped. Of course if you flip the paddle in DS mode you go permanently into M mode, so there is potential for confusion there.
So my conclusion is that it is a step forward, but the Steptronic still isn't perfect. I'd like to try some other transmissions - the Golf DSG sounds interesting, but I went for the 3.0L diesel for the superb combination of performance and economy.
01-17-2007, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by red-max' post='379476' date='Jan 17 2007, 01:41 PM
Well, it's all subjective, but you are asking for my opinion, so here goes...
I would say that the "improved" Steptronic is improved (that is comparing to my 2004 E60 530d), but it is still not perfect. It's fine for most daily driving, but on reflection I think it does spoil the driver enjoyment factor for me - you never get that feeling of being 100% in control, and I wonder if I should have test-driven the 330d manual or even 335i manual before buying another Steptronic. However, in traffic it definitely saves pumping the clutch, so that's the trade-off.
Where the Steptronic still fails (for me) is in two places. First, when braking to a standstill (or almost to a standstill) at a junction, there is a lag when stepping on the gas and the car pulling away. I don't know if this is in the transmission or in the BMW brake-assist logic (and it might be both), but either way I feel this, and it's annoying. Secondly, the Steptronic doesn't seem optimised for the big diesel - in D it still downshifts unnecessarily when you push on the gas (much less so in DS) and sometimes in D it seems to hold the revs too high for too long, even when I back off the throttle. The paddle shifters can be used in D mode to avoid the downshift induced lag (you can flip the paddle to shift down yourself in preparation for accelerating) but this leaves you in a temporary M mode which times out and goes back to D after a few seconds. I have tried this a few times, but it doesn't seem to work as well as I had hoped. Of course if you flip the paddle in DS mode you go permanently into M mode, so there is potential for confusion there.
So my conclusion is that it is a step forward, but the Steptronic still isn't perfect. I'd like to try some other transmissions - the Golf DSG sounds interesting, but I went for the 3.0L diesel for the superb combination of performance and economy.
I would say that the "improved" Steptronic is improved (that is comparing to my 2004 E60 530d), but it is still not perfect. It's fine for most daily driving, but on reflection I think it does spoil the driver enjoyment factor for me - you never get that feeling of being 100% in control, and I wonder if I should have test-driven the 330d manual or even 335i manual before buying another Steptronic. However, in traffic it definitely saves pumping the clutch, so that's the trade-off.
Where the Steptronic still fails (for me) is in two places. First, when braking to a standstill (or almost to a standstill) at a junction, there is a lag when stepping on the gas and the car pulling away. I don't know if this is in the transmission or in the BMW brake-assist logic (and it might be both), but either way I feel this, and it's annoying. Secondly, the Steptronic doesn't seem optimised for the big diesel - in D it still downshifts unnecessarily when you push on the gas (much less so in DS) and sometimes in D it seems to hold the revs too high for too long, even when I back off the throttle. The paddle shifters can be used in D mode to avoid the downshift induced lag (you can flip the paddle to shift down yourself in preparation for accelerating) but this leaves you in a temporary M mode which times out and goes back to D after a few seconds. I have tried this a few times, but it doesn't seem to work as well as I had hoped. Of course if you flip the paddle in DS mode you go permanently into M mode, so there is potential for confusion there.
So my conclusion is that it is a step forward, but the Steptronic still isn't perfect. I'd like to try some other transmissions - the Golf DSG sounds interesting, but I went for the 3.0L diesel for the superb combination of performance and economy.
The most interesting thing I have learnt for your mini-review...
(i) the paddles are useful for over-riding actual or potential poor decisions made by the step
(ii) the paddles are more useful while cruising (for above reason) and can be a distraction on the twisties or in town
(iii) the transmission slam/hesitancy isn't really cured at all. Maybe better, not cured (which is pretty amazing after so many years... it must be a serious design flaw that even software and minor mechanical revisions can't fix... ;-) )
(iv) so... they still haven't managed to perfectly tune the automatic for diesel ... it seems to think it's talking to a petrol V8 (550i) by the sounds of it.
01-17-2007, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Raighne' post='379531' date='Jan 17 2007, 04:27 PM
(iv) so... they still haven't managed to perfectly tune the automatic for diesel ... it seems to think it's talking to a petrol V8 (550i) by the sounds of it.