645Coup

Hi All,

I too have an N62B44 engine with the well known tick that a lot of 545i drivers in the states have, I first noticed the noise after about a month of ownership after I became used to the car. Like all the other threads the noise is present when cold, at low revs, on light throttle, disappears when you lift your foot off the gas and is not noticeable at cruising speeds. The noise isn?t audible at tick over from either outside the car or inside, only when load is on the engine, its not any of the ancillary drives such as alternator or A/C pump.
About 2-3 months after the purchase I changed the oil as a matter of course, although the car salesman said they would service the car before I picked it up I don?t trust them as far as I could throw them!
To my surprise I found a couple of very small, very very thin, magnetic flakes in the oil filter cup, initially my stomach sank thinking I?ve bought a time bomb (a Sept ?04 645ci), but then an experienced mechanic friend of mine said not to worry ?yet? as this could be the remnants of the casting process flashings and machining swarf that had failed to come out of the engine fully during the initial first two oil changes done under warranty.

As an aside??.
I used to work for Toyota Engine Manufacturing and this does have some logic as the ZZ engine blocks are machined, washed, pressure tested, and if needs be any porosity filled via a pressurised ?grout? type process then retested. Anyway, knowing how many manufacturing processes the various components go through during construction, it is entirely feasible that the first couple of oil changing not only break the engines in, they also flush the galleries to some degree and those changes have to be done by the dealer, therefore you never see the old oil.

Additionally this friend of mine pointed out that the majority of cars have the ?canister? type oil filters that you unscrew and throw away, totally sealed not knowing what is inside them. He pointed out to me that, out of curiosity, he pulled one apart on a brand new Honda Civic Type ?R? and was amazed to find lots of bits!

I digress.

So I jumped on the forums both European and American only to find that this ticking is a know issue?.. brilliant! Why didn?t I do more research before buying?!?
https://5series.net/forums/topic/966...i/page__st__45
http://www.bimmerforums.co.uk/forum/...k-help-t51374/
https://5series.net/forums/topic/209...apping__st__15


I then stumbled upon this thread that shows how one of these liner-less engines had began to eat itself!
http://e60.5post.com/forums/showthre...=364646&page=1


I also found a thread pointing to premature failure of the big-end rod shells.
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=455012

Brilliant, was this the start of the dead cylinder 6 story? My ticking is far less severe than the ones posted on YouTube, so I thought I was at the early stages of the same problem eventually alluding to scored cylinder walls and a dead engine?
Now, do I sell the car, find the cause, or investigate the cylinders via a bore scope? Well the car was due for the V8 brake recall fix so while it was in, I asked them to investigate the noise and gave strict instruction on how to replicate it. Well after £80 for 1hrs investigation (they basically drove it!) a Tech said its piston slap and the Master Tech said it?s a bottom end issue (so they couldn?t agree between themselves!...& £80!), the Master Tech suggested a compression test and a leak down test, then pulling the sump (which is an engine out job for BMW as they like to do it with plenty of space and don?t care about the £120/hr they charge their customers, plus the sump is in two parts sandwiched up against the sub-frame!). Bearing in mind that the above thread link pointed to worn shells and the Master Tech said its bottom end, I went home and preformed a compression test and changed the plugs as they were due for changing (I?ve got pics of the methods in-case you?re interested as the back two are a real pain!), anyway, the comp test showed uniformity and none of the plugs were oily / sooty. But there?s still the ?bottom end? tick! BTW the car has full service history.
Right, in for a penny in for a pound, I went on www.realoem.com and armed with a copy of BMW?s TIS service data (eBay), I set about ordering replacement Big-end Conrod Shells and all associated seals etc. to replace them over the Christmas period, £292.00 & 4 days later I had all the bits (including an oil pressure gauge)

Part No.
B11247516322 ? Rod Bolts x16
B11247528900 ? Bearing Shell Top x8
B11241438927 ? Bearing shell Btm x8
B11417508288 ? O-ring x2
B11421713597 ? O-ring x1
B11137506774 ? Gasket x1
B11137545293 ? Gasket x1
B11431287541 ? O-ring x1

The strip down
Hopefully the pictures will tell a large part of the story but to do this I needed: -
2x engine hoists
2x 3t Jacks
1x Bottle Jack
2x large ramps
1x fan heater (its winter)
1x Halogen flood light (doubles up as a heater)
20x Cups of Tea
3 ranges of torque wrenches
Engine sealant
Plastigauge
Engine assembly lube
Lint free rags
Oil pressure gauge
BMW TIS disc
Patience
3-4 days lying on your back in a garage
And an ability to work in military interrogation style stress positions!

1.
Remove engine cover


2.
Jack her up and secure


3.
Remove all under body guarding & reinforcement plate

4.
Remove lower oil sump


Here I found more flakes, not many, but a few more that were of the same material and too big to make it through the oil strainer. So they may have been there from day 1 and never made it out of the pan between oil changes as the opening at the sump plus is slightly raised?.. or, they?re new!


5.
Secure the engine on the hoists, undo the engine mounts.


6.
Support the sub-frame with bottle jack and remove bolts, also remove securing pin from steering rack knuckle and unclip the wiring plugs from around the active steering unit.


7.
Drop the sub-frame 200mm being careful not to strain any hoses plus keep an eye on the steering column for binding while lowering. Remove the upper section of the Oil sump.


8.
Remove the Oil pump

Honestly, the size of the pump is massive, these engines are as close as you?re going to get to dry sump conditions without it actually being a dry sump!

9.
Clean down and change big end shells plastigauging as you go. Mine where all 0.05mm clearance or 0.002? in old money!


By the way, these engines use sintered conrods which basically means that the metal enters a die in powder form containing very accurate quantities of materials and then heated under pressure to form a rod. The rod is then machined and then fractured to split the cap from the rod! This looks very odd and I thought I had a naff batch of conrods in my engine by means of pressure welding and inter-granular growth, but these worries where soon put to bed. Here?s a link http://www.springerlink.com/content/u2xa72l9rgfwxty8/



10.
Reverse breakdown using assembly lube and sealant, torque and replace bolts and seals where necessary, test oil pressure and fire her up.

11.
What was found??well, nothing and the noise is still present!
However, this job did enable me to fully inspect all 8 bores and none of them have any scoring as seen in the horror story at the top of this thread!

Anyway, I thought I?d share this with you all as we can at least rule out big end bearing wear being the source of the tick. If that master tech was correct in that it is a bottom end issue then, in the coming months I may?MAY! pull the motor and inspect the crank shells. Its probably a hiding to nothing and the only other thing I can think of is the little end bearing but that?s a engine out and head off job and in all honesty I think I?ll have moved house by then, got myself a large double garage, solid the Bavarian Coupe and bought myself a daily drive and a E39 M5 to tune up!
If I was to pull the engine and do all this, in the end it still might actually be just piston slap and the scored cylinder in the above link was the most unluckiest dude ever!

Oh, and by the way, IMO the 19k between oil changes is BS due to fuel dilution, which typically degrades the oil from around 6-8k miles onwards. You can Google it, but here?s a quick layman?s link - http://www.tsadvancedsynthetics.com/...nd_Effects.htm
I?m not suggesting our piston rings have a habit of passing fuel mixture but there will be a slight gaseous leak over the millions of revolutions the engine goes through between services which may be affecting the engine and making one particular part wear quicker and therefore tick due to the lightweight oils and high pressure (read narrow) oil galleries not supplying the exacting oil requirements?!?!?


Moral of the story ? my cylinders are clean and it aint big end bearings.
Thanks for reading!

Laci535i

Wow, what did you do in the afternoon??? :-))))))

530inOK

Too bad you didn't find a worn bearing. At least now you have confidence in the bottom end and cylinder walls. 20X Cups of tea

645Coup

Afraid not, it took me 3 1/2 days. Although one of those days was spent beggin stealin & borrowin engine lifts. My mate had one but he's an hours trip away! Still if I HAD to do it again I think I could nail it in 2 to 2.5 days now, most of the stuff was figuring out what needed to be done in what sequence

west

What a great contribution. Thank you for the detailed write-up. Never heard about fracture-splitting before until just now. Interesting stuff.

Isaiah_Charles

Kudos to you, I did a swap on my 02 Nissan maxima once but that was nothing compared to tearing apart the engine as you did

turboawd

wow. thats a lot of work to not fix the noise.

have you ruled out the lifters or injectors as to causing the noise?

also, could be exhaust ticking....if you have a slight leak on the exhaust manifold, it would tick and get louder with the engine loaded.

in my experience, bad bearings cause more of a knock than a tick.
i tore apart a motor on a syclone before, after suspecting worn bearings, and it turned out to have some rod bearings worn, on a motor that had only 1k miles previous owner didnt check clearances properly.

aw3964

lifters?

There is a TSB posted on this site somewhere. (I understand his issue is w/645ci)

aw3964

via marshman:


Hi Guys,

Had the same problem with both my 2007 530i and 328i.
My dealer replaced the lifters on both cars (they were under warranty). Fixed the problem.

Here is a copy of the Service Bulletin:

Hope this helps.


September 2009

This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B11 09 07 dated January 2009.

SUBJECT
Intermittent Hydraulic Valve Adjuster (HVA) Noise

MODEL
All E82, E83, E88, E85, E86, E60, E61, E70, E90, E91, E92 and E93 vehicles with N51, N52 or N52K engines produced approximately up to November 31st 2008; refer to cylinder head casting identification attachment.


SITUATION
An occasional ticking or rattling noise from the camshaft hydraulic valve lifters (HVA) may occur during cold engine starts, due to frequent short-distance driving, or the noise may occur for an extended period of time even though the engine is at operating temperature.

Improved parts were phased into production beginning on 10/1/2008 and fully implemented on November 31st 2008.

CORRECTION
Do not perform the bleeding procedure that was previously provided in SI B11 09 07 which has now been deleted.

All vehicles produced between 10/1/2008 and 11/31/2008 must have each vehicle's cylinder head casting number identified before hydraulic valve lifters (HVA) replacement, due to staggered implementation. Refer to the attachment for the casting number location. Vehicles produced after 11/31/2008 have already been fitted with improved parts. Vehicles produced prior to 10/1/2008 will require the new parts.

Improved Casting Numbers

N51 (B30)
7588277.01

N52 (B30)
7588273.01

N52K (B30)
7588271.01

A cylinder head casting number that does not match will require replacement of the 12 exhaust camshaft hydraulic valve lifters (HVA) as per Repair Instruction RA 11 33 050, Removing and installing/replacing all rocker arms. Only the exhaust camshaft and rocker arms have to be removed in order to replace the hydraulic valve lifters. Do not remove or replace any intake camshaft valve train components.

PARTS INFORMATION
Part Number
Description
Quantity

11 33 7 605 330
Hydraulic Valve Lifter (HVA)
12

Refer to EPC for additional gaskets, seals and bolts, as required by the Repair Instructions.

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty, or the Certified Pre-Owned program.

Please refer to the latest KSD for the applicable Main or Associated labor allowance for the specific model.

Defect Code:
11 33 93 39 00


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

00 58 248
Refer to KSD
Replace exhaust camshaft hydraulic valve lifters (HVA)

*Main Work

or

00 58 827
Refer to KSD
Replace exhaust camshaft hydraulic valve lifters (HVA)

+ Associated Work

Note: The following explanations will spell out the correct use of the work times.

Main Work:
Use this labor operation number when the only repair performed is the listed warranty repair.


OR


+Associated Work:
Use this labor operation number when other repairs or services are performed along with the listed warranty repair.
Under no circumstances should both labor operation numbers be claimed. Attempts to claim both times will result in an unnecessary delay in claim processing and payment.

645Coup

Hi turboawd,

I initially didn't think it was the lifters / top end, as the noise's 'characteristics' ie. knock, point to the bottom end. But a leaking exhaust manifold did cross my mind, the only problem being, that they're so inaccessable to test for leakage with either your hand or smoke from a cigarette that it slipped off the radar when I started reading up on that engine eating cylinder #6.
I'll most likely have another look at that in a couple of weeks now I know how all the subframe is assembled etc. But one thing the noise is not is the ticky high pitched valve clatter you get from a valve seat wear, duff vanos etc, its definately a lower pitched noise, not a tick, not a knock, but more a tack! (probably made no sense then!). I've also know where the hydraulic 'lifters' are in that engine and.....OMG!! Any further down in the head and they'd be pressing on the head gasket!! Basically lots of stuff would need to be removed just to get at them!!