atl530i

I want this post to be as constructive to this community and fellow e60 owners so I am going to do my best to lay this out in an organized manner so everyone can follow my diagnosis of this small annoying problem and hopefully you can help me to the finish line.

I bought an 07 530i (N52, auto tranny) about a year ago with 82k. It currently has 102k. While it was under CPO I had the transmission replaced (jerked on downshift into 1st), driveshaft (creak when going into gear), water pump + thermostat (Engine code), oil pan leak. The car is in fantastic condition. Has never let me down or missed a beat. I have all the confidence in the world that the car with get me from A -> B no problems.

With that said I have never been 100% happy with the car. I notice details the average person would never take the chance to notice. I am that type of person and I am sure I am not the only on this board. With that said my car has never shifted right, it has always had this annoying hesitation, slight cabin vibration, and I am currently getting 16.5 mpg (down from 24 when I bought it) driving 80 mph on a 20 mile commute that is 18 miles of traffic free highway. My car is obviously running rich. The extra fuel is taxing the cat’s. Every morning when I startup in the garage I can smell the cats rich with fuel. I am desperate to fix this issue so I order up some maintenance parts in hopes to find the problem

Plugs (BMW)
Air Filter (MANN)
Oil Filer (MANN)
Mobil-1 Full Syn 5w-30
Redline 75w-90 Diff Fluid Flush - old fluid was burnt and very dark
Continental Serpentine Belt – needed replacement @ 100k
All new BMW rotors (mine were long gone), replacement helped tremendously. The rotors must be in spec for the caliper to be in the right position. If the caliper is in the wrong position in can stick on the guide pins. I believe mine were sticking a little causing some jerking issues that are now gone.
All new ceramic pads (less dust)
Adjusted Parking Brake
Flushed Power Steering (very dirty)
Flushed Brake System (dirty)
Replaced Radiator Cap
Replaced Oil Filler Cap
Cleaned MAF (looked clean)

In doing all of this work when I went to start the car up I forgot to plug the MAF back in. Saw the CEL for the first time in my ownership, so I hooked up INPA to read/clear the codes. I found I had a DISA actuator #1 not responding code as well as the MAD related codes. It had a frequency of 24. Assuming it happened 24 times and it had 3 samples with engine parameters saved. The oldest one was 95k. I'm at 101k now. I think this code was not enough to warrant a CEL. Earlier in my CPO my SA advised my car had a code stored for slight overheat but there was no CEL. I assume the codes have a severity attached and this one was silent. Today I went to remove the DISA 1 actuator. Well it was totally destroyed. The flap had no resistance, it was crooked outside of the housing & the pin was ground down. Those valves are designed to be closed at low rpms, the smaller of the two opens at low rpms, and the bigger of the two (broken in my case) only opens at high rpms. Explains why my car has no high rpm problems. I have several questions I am hoping you guys can help me with.

1. My smaller DISA actuator (#2) is stuck in the open position when removed from the car. I cannot move it. It is my understanding the normal position for these valves is closed (this is true for the larger one). Can anyone verify if the smaller DISA (#2) [inside the intake manifold when installed] should be open or closed with the car off?

2. My intake manifold was covered in oil. I recently (95k) did an oil test and it came back with absolutely no wear issues. So I don’t think it is blow by. I need to do a compression test to verify? I was pretty convinced my CCV needed an overhaul but all the oil in the intake confirmed that. I cracked the CCV open and it was discusting along with all the hoses. I bought the separator and all 3 hoses. This is most likely the cause of the oil in the intake correct? After 7.5k my oil level has 1-2 green bars left. I have no leaks. My exhaust tips do quickly get covered in back soot.

3. While I have the intake manifold off I want to replace all items that should be replaced around 100k. I currently am getting

DISA #1
DISA #2 *if stuck open is bad. I am thinking it is
CCV & All hoses
New intake gaskets

+

Bosch Reman Starter & new bolts to install

What else should I look at while the manifold is removed? Only think I can see is the vacuum pump that boosts the brakes. I haven't seen a history of those going like I have seen with the starters. Are there any sensors I’m missing? Would you do the motor mount?

Thanks in advance! If anyone wants to see any pictures or wants to me to look anywhere for something while mine is all apart just ask!

lbredefe

I just wanted to say...

1) based on all the very specific information in this post that you have seemingly come up with and deduced on your own, as well as the fact that it seems as though you actually did most of this work yourself, which is highly unusual for someone who can afford all of these parts when they aren't in immediate need of replacing....(thats a compliment)
2) I find this impressive, you essentially need to quit your day job and be lead engineer on an F1 crew.
3) you may be a genius


that being said, I wish i could help you with these questions but some of them are definitely for a technician and im sure they will tune in here on the forum and reply to you.

best of luck..

atl530i

Thank you for such the kind words. I am a Software Engineer by trade so I make/break/&fix things for a living in a virtual world. Cars are my ultimate real world passion. I have been trying to fix this for quite some time now. I pride myself in being able to fix what I own. The dealer doesn't diagnosis, they just throw parts around. It seems the ATL dealers are incompetent when it comes to actually fixing issues. These cars are so complicated I assume BMW figures it is cheaper to blindly replace parts (under warranty) than to actually fix the customers issues. This in turn leads to BMW getting a terrible reputation when it comes to reliability. BMW replaces lots of parts that are not in need of replacing because flow charts have taken the place of mechanics with experience and general debugging skills. In addition, I love to take apart and mend things. I always have. Working on such an engineering marvel as a BMW with a N52 is a joy! I learn with every part I remove. Plus the confidence achieved is great. These cars are really well put together and when maintained properly will last a lifetime. The car is now more a status symbol than engineering symbol. The brand will ultimately pay for that decision (m-sport, package this and that, 5series as big as a Rolls). I'm just hanging on until another company understands enthusiasts like us are out there willing to pay for "The Ultimate Driving Machine".

I will say this without this and other forums I would never been able to achieve the level of understanding in my first post. I do feel that I am taking this problem one step further than it has been taken. I wanted to add it to the community incase anyone else finds themselves in my position. My DISA #1 was in pieces in my intake and causing lots of problems the worst being my 16.5 MPG. I think the DISA is going to become a common failure piece in these cars reaching 100k so I want to let everyone know before they go to the dealer and every part but the $250 DISA is touched. I haven't gotten my new one in but when I do I will be sure to follow up.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. The only video on the net of this DISA. (That is not me, mine was much worse if thats believable)

I'm quite positive I have found the answer to #1. The DISA when removed from the car will be in the open position. When it is shipped it is in the closed position but when removed from the car it should be open and unable to be moved. I found a post when this was described and accoumpanied with pictures.

I have decided to continue my tune up with DISA #1, CCV & all hoses, Reman Starter, clean throttle body while it is off, & belt tensioner (check this my belt is off my tensioner by 1/8", its going bad). After this is completed I will report back with my findings. Any more input?

Also I have been running the Lubri-Moli fuel system cleaner and valve clean and both my intake valves in all 6 cylinders are looking brand new. That stuff is amazing I highly recommend a 4 bottle (2 of each) regimine implemented for anyone that has >75k and doesn't know the last time a cleaner was run. The first bottle of each should be done with 14-16 gallons. I think 1/2ed that for the final two bottles. No issues. Chevron fuel only.

LIQUI MOLY - Motor Oils, Additives, Car Care - Products - Jectron
LIQUI MOLY - Motor Oils, Additives, Car Care - Products - Valve Clean

Lets keep these N52's up. Any more recommendations or constructive criticism of my approach?

ronmexico

Different engine and drivetrain, but I went through basically the EXACT same symptoms/issues as you are now with my 2010 550i.

I had both DISA assemblies replaced (then told by BMW that my indy shop installed 2, when there's only one. Uhhhh, yeah OK. I'm still working on a lawsuit vs BMW Dealer). I also had the valve covers replaced because they were leaking (very small bit, but I opted to have them replaced for piece-of-mind).

I *think* my DISA motors were in the same state, they were seized or 'held open/closed' and not adjusting as needed. (You obviouslly know what seized meant, I just don't recall in my case, if they were siezed in the "open" or "closed" position).

The ultimate problem ending up being a toasted cat, likely caused by the underlying cause of your running rich symptoms.

I also echo your practical relationship with your Bimmer. I'm a sysadmin (likely in the same field) and treat my car like an ongoing server/network project. Because, well, it is

I would be ever so curious to find out if you ever pinpoint the cause. I know that once everything was fixed on mine, I had to replace the vaccuum line to my DTMF . Might be worth checking that assembly (behind rear passenger fender liner) because I suspect my issue started by air being allowed to enter the fuel system through my hose leak. Worth a check at least, I think.

atl530i

Wow, thank you so much for the input! I am really hoping I have not ruined either of my cats but @ 16.5 MPG I know they are not designed to take that kind of abuse from raw fuel. My MPG's have been declining for about 10k miles (from 24, same commute). If you do not mind me asking how many miles had you put on the car in this state to ruin the cat? You have a 2010 so I assume not too much.

Just to clarify for anyone reading this. The adjusters when they arrive brand new should be "stuck" closed (verified from a parts dealer), when you remove them from the car (assuming the car was shut down properly because @ idle they are both closed however I guess the engine opens them when shut off) they should be "stuck" open (verified from another source), and when they are bad they have lost connection to the motor like in the video above.

What is the DTMF? I am still learning all about the vac system. I think I will be replacing everything vac related (CCV & hoses + the line to the booster is ok) except one line that connects to the Throttle Body that goes towards the back of the car. That seems to be the line that gets the extra fumes from the gas tank and burns them? Is that the line you are talking about? How did you know it was bad? Seems very difficult to replace.

atl530i

Z4-forum.com • View topic - DISA Removal and Maintenance - N52 Engine (Pic Heavy)

Confirms when removed they will be in the open position. When I get my new one I will post a picture confirming that it is closed when shipped. I think my DISA #2 is ok. It is significantly smaller than DISA #1 so possibly the design does not scale very well.

If you have a rattle that you suspect is not valve related, low end torque is missing, bad mpgs, etc please take the time to remove the airbox, Throttle body elbow, and then the DISA comes right off. Check the intake for excessive oil (bad CCV or worse blow by) and check the valve. Mine was literally coming apart. No Check Engine Light and the car was running well besides the loss of MPG.

I attribute a lot of this to the extended 15k oil change intervals. The oil is allowed to break down too far. Engine oil is way to cheap of insurance to run old oil in these cars.

ronmexico

Hope you like to read I like to talk....

Well the DTMF is exactly what you guessed it was. It's a little module that acts in the evaporation system. And yes, it has a vaccuum line that travels basically the length of the passenger side into the TB. The part cost is $440. Even online, and not @ the BMW markup. Pretty f'kin expensive once you see how crappy the line is. $440.....jeez. Find used if you end up replacing it....

From what I understand, it just aids in releasing the fumes from the gas system. You can actually hear it running when you turn the car off, it usually goes off in like 20-30seconds. Theres a line for fuel to pass through, then a really crappy plastic, hollow tube (almost like wiring conduit) that acts as an evaporator. It's under heavy vaccuum, so my shitty patch-job didn't work.

Well in my case, the fender liner was shredded. And the evap hose was exposed, and thus, gashed wide open. I tried patching it up with some viynl tubing I had, but it was a no go. I had to replace the hose. I bought it, and had my indy shop install it, because yes, it's a f'kin PAIN. AND EXPESNIVE.

But you probably have an idea of expensive. In my car, I have 2 manifolds (one for each bank) and I got "lucky" that only one cat was bad (cat is part of the manifold, but you might be slightly different with n52) . The unit price on the manifolds/cat assemply is like $7500. If both were bad? $15k . I had it happen basically right @ 75k . It was my driver bank that ended up being bad, but BMW didn't want to replace it. They replaced a whole bunch of other needless stuff (and stuff I already paid for @ indy) .... and we ended up being correct the entire time. It was the driver side cat. Thanks to this forum, I found out there is a 80k emissions warranty on all cars past 2008 . I got lucky, and after a long fight, and a BUNCH of needless money, it was fixed. The DISA motors had been bad for some time. 6months or so. I really do believe the cause was the excess air in the evaporator from the DTMF like I mentioned. I didn't have a CEL for the DIS motor (although I did have the mentioned loss of torque and power and higher RPMs. Real obvious in my high-revving motor) but did for the gas cap.

I had all of this happen at the start of this year, a week after new years. Here's the thread with a timeline of everything: https://5series.net/forums/e60-discu...ly-bad-129157/

I learned more about my car becuase of this than I ever expected to. I'm glad I did, because if I do end up suing the dealer (still weighing the benefit of this. I did get a re-imbursement from BMW NA so I don't stand to gain much money. It's strictly principle.), I have A LOT of technical specifications about my car that I observed and learned myself. I was basically side-by-side of my mechanic as he worked on my car. Real hands on kind of stuff. I also have a good relationship w/ my indy and they let me come in and turn my own wrenches. I do coding for them on all types of cars, so we kind of trade. It';s nice, because I dont have the space @ home to work on her...

If you ever wanna chat, drop me a PM. You can also follow me on twitter (if you have it) @acuralegend . We can probably compare some pretty technical details about the issue(s). A lot of the components on the e60 are commonly engineered, and I basi ally have TWO of everything.


I LOVE my e60 though. I'm sure you do too (when it's running right!)

atl530i

I enjoy reading & listening esp. conversation so valuable. Thank you for all you have added so far. I really believe these DISA valves as well as the entire vacuum system is under engineered on this car when subjected to minimal dealer maintenance. As it seems you and I have found out. It also seems the ECU is unable to properly detect vacuum issues and get them addressed properly. Doubling the fueling to maintain the mixture for precat O2's should send all kinds of crazy warnings. I would rather debug for hours and fix it right once than throw parts around. In my mind, these conversations have alot of value for these forums. Fixing problems before they are problems only usually only create more problems, the worse kind of problems at that. Dealers love to do that. More $$ down the road.

The manifold's in my car are exactly the same design as found on yours except I have 2 x 3 cylinders where you have 2 x 4 cylinders. I am going to need to test my cats I assume when this is all said and done. So through this all you had only one CEL on and that was gas cap/evap system related? Thankfully I do not have that so maybe just maybe my issue stops at the DISA but I am prepared to forge on if the car isn't 100% after this work. I'm going out of town Wednesday but when I get back in a week I will put it all back together and report! I assume you might have had another CEL for the post cat O2 sensor complaining. If not how did you know your cat was bad? Emission testing?

Per your advise, I will defiantly remove my rear passenger inner fender and check all those pieces back there. So the hose was visibly defective for you? I have seen a good DIY on the M5 forum where someone replaced his evap canister.

I will drop you a pm with my email info (don't have twitter). If you ever need help or just a second head to look at something feel free to drop me a line.

Last note:
A vacuum line that connects directly to the TB that runs the entire car and is fastened in a wheel well. All so a little gas vapor isn't put into the air...all in the name of emissions. Regulations... I cannot go down that path of conversation without using the caps lock button and lots of !. Not constructive to fix this problem.

If anyone has any insight/advise/recommendations/experience please speak up!

ronmexico

Yeah, it's the new philosophy of the BMW engineers. over-engineer the simplest stuff in a lab, and have no idea about the real world. The function is fine, but like you said, really? That vaccum line is put in the MOST PRONE position to get destroyed. Freakin Bavarians man

I saw and used that exact guide on the m5 forum (m5post ?) to get to the bottom of it. Everything was the same.

The CEL I got that ultimately ended up being the cat was a slew of misfires. I was @ 75k, and coils/plugs needed to be serviced anyway. But even upon replacement, issues persisted. Knew about the DISA stuff for a while, so I decided since I was spending money to tune up, might as well fix it. Those motors are not cheap. Again, something you probably know. Did the valve covers because once I saw the oil leak, I didnt want the valvetronic to die @ 100k because I was being cheap. The entire time, the cat was throwing codes, and causing the 4 cylsinders to random misfire. There were slews of codes. After eliminating all off then with a preventative approach like yourself, we settled on cat. That's why my other post is titled 'could my ecu be bad' the issue all along, was as you described, the inherently complex emissions system, all getting jobbed by weird readings due to evap leaks, and dirty cats.

We finally ran out of stuff to try, and even my local dealer couldn't quite pin it down. That's another story in itself, the 4Hrs of diag they forced me to.pay, when I told them all along it was the cat. It was only at the dealer because of the emissions warranty. I'm out of that 80k emissions warranty now, if the other one goes out, I'm looking at 6-7k to fix.

I, too, think that this is going to become one of the watershed issues for owners. Good luck finding info on it though bro, I looked, and looked, and posted, and searched, and looked, and talked, and found very little.

I finally ended up downloading the BMW engine spcification manual from the e65 forum(s), and read up on the entire engine design philosophy, features, and specs. Then from what I did with my indy and the new frame of reference, I tried to put it all out there in my other thread.

Maybe we're unique? I've driven the shit out of my car. I got it in August of 2010 w/17k - and now I have 81k (just rolled over to 81k today, haha!) . I drive it so much, because it's so enjoyable. I think as people get closer to 100k, the problem is going to start. I don't think even many of the 04 e60 guys are in the 80-100k range, but you're even ahead of me!

atl530i

I took the time to read your thread, which I had seen before when you posted it, after I posted and kinda thought exactly what you just described. You had crazy codes all unrelated to the underlying issue, well I had NO codes but 16.5 MPG, slight cabin vibration at idle, ticking noise in the engine (certain this isn't valve train related but that DISA valve flapping around under vacuum), slight hesitation, and a slightly off shift strategy. The ECU is making critical assertions on parts that just don't last past 100k. I don't know which one is better. Wrong guesses or no guesses? I just hope someone else reads this understands that these car's are actually quite robust however they are hindered by US regulations dealing with emissions. When implemented in our advanced car something went wrong. It shouldn't be this hard to troubleshoot. When you take a system that does nothing for the consumer but make the car legal to sell. Where do you think the cost is going to be cut? I think alot of other people throw money at this same issue and yes the fresh parts make it a little better but is the issue ever totally resolved? It seems like thread after thread parts are replaced and the issue is a little better. I never see anything where the owner was able to put the car back into new operating condition. That is my ultimate goal. I drive the CRAP out of my car. I do so knowing the car is 110% tip top. Not one corner cut on maintenance or upkeep. My life is inside that car @ 80 mph with other ATL drivers within inches. It must be perfect for me to spend 1hr (5-6% of awake hours) of my day in. Please people take a close look at these systems meant to decrease emissions and squeeze every last inch out of the engine. They are brittle plastic pieces starting @ 75k.