Locksmythe

What comment are you trying to make?

subterFUSE

The answer to this is simple. Marketing.


Auto companies chose suppliers for audio/video equipment based primarily on their perceived ability to sell the customer. Brand names like Harmon-Kardon and Bose are well-known among non-audiophiles who make up the majority of the public. These people don't really know whether these companies make good or bad equipment.... they just know the name, and therefore associate that name with quality without much skepticism.

If you say "Dynaudio", most people won't have a clue what you are talking about.

Say Bose, and they'll know instantly.


Car companies know this, and they choose their suppliers based on that fact. They don't care about giving the customers quality, because the customer wouldn't understand quality if it bit them in the ass. Like you said..... Volvo was using Dynaudio speakers in their cars. But how many people actually knew that? And how many of the people that knew about it really cared?


Bottom line is that most people don't know much about music. And if you don't know much about music, then it's not likely you know much about audio equipment. Just look at how we have been moving backwards with respect to recording quality over the past 10 years. CDs are on the way out, replaced by inferior quality compressed digital formats. DVD audio has never taken hold. Record companies who make professional recordings are slowly being pushed aside by direct distribution, artists recording in their bedrooms instead of high-end studios and publishing directly to the internet. I was still buying vinyl up until about a year ago. I would still be getting it, but many of the best record labels have shut down..... replaced by digital downloads.

People simply don't understand the drawbacks of compressed audio, and since they don't know much of anything about music..... these shortcomings are unimportant to them. If you don't know what a good recording should sound like, then it's hard to know the difference between good and bad. Plus, if you have a cheap piece of junk for a stereo, a good recording might not sound much different.

aybeesea

Your post is music to my ears.

Are you a mind reader?



ABC

florus

How are the horns less directional? The whole theory behind horns makes them much more drectional.

subterFUSE

I did not say horns were non-directional. I said that horns typically image better than separate components because they act as a single point-source for the directional frequencies. (Namely from midrage up) When you have separate midrange and tweeter, the placement you choose can have an effect on the imaging as well as the frequency response. Phase cancellation becmes a concern when you mount tweeters away from the midrange speakers. (example, midrange low in door, but tweeter up near side mirrors) With horns, the phase cancellation issues are less of a problem.

I said that subwoofers are non-directional, which is true. You can put a subwoofer just about anywhere, and it won't affect the overall stereo imaging (unless you have it crossed-over too high)

florus

disperse sound in a wider pattern = non-directional

bargamon

Good thread.

Portable music has become a big thing and compressed files degrade the music. But for the average Joe critical listening is not that important. Convienence is!

Thus the "Bose Miricle" is popular because its easy to put together. I recently saw a demonstration of its built in EQ system and was impressed by the trickery they had.

Im not going to get into what I have, but I recently spent about a grand on new cables for my new system, and I don't consider myself anywhere close to being over the top as compared to whats out there!

Now there are two kind of music lovers. Those that really listen to the content and others that listen to the components. I kinda go back and forth and understand both. I love my new equipment and enjoyed the hours of installation and research. Its a complicated system and I designed it. I love hearing the SACD recordings but not sure if I really like it yet. But its interesting!

IN the car, I would love to have that, but having another system to tend to would be a pain. ANd a car is a volitle environment for good equipment. In My opinion of course.

TO have a GOOD system at a resonable price that is under warranty with full integration with idrive like sirius and ipod is a big benefit. Its a lease so IM only paying for 40% of the cost also!

THe companies use companies like bose and harmon kardon for marketing purpose I agree. My JBL system in my wifes Sienna van with its center channel and hype is decent, but certainly not mind blowing my any stretch.

I wonder if Volvo used the really good Dynaudio stuff or was it cost effective parts? Im not sure its all that much different than the other crap that is used.

I love my new Bose earbuds, my bose desk speakers in my office, and found my bose in my many audis and Mercedes over the years to be acceptable. I have Bose outdoor speakers all over my back yard and they are great! I like a heavy sound.

But no BOSE for critical listening! Not in my Den, or other rooms!

Its too bad car companies can't go just a bit more on effort and resources. My theory is good accoustic blueprinting of the cars can compensate for lessor components. This saves money in manufacture and replacment parts. Bose seems to do a good jobs with accoustic trickery on speakers.

subterFUSE

Oh.... you're missing what I mean.


When you speak about directional sound in terms of stereo systems, what you are referring to is sounds which the human hear can easily pinpoint the origin. Part of the reason we have 2 ears, is that it helps us determine where sounds are coming from. You know how 2 eyes give you depth perception? It's similar with 2 ears.

A sound hits one ear, and then another. Our brains measure the time difference between the sounds arriving at our ears.... and this gives us a sense of direction.

However, our ears are more attuned to certain frequencies. To us, deep bass frequencies are harder to pinpoint in terms of location of origin. This is why you can install subwoofers in the trunk of a car, or just about anywhere in a home theater. Since we can't really distinguish where those sounds are comig from.... their placement is less important.

Therefore, bass ranges are often referred to as being non-directional sounds. (Meaning they don't give off a specific location to the human ear)

But midrange and high frequencies are much easier for us to locate. And so these are referred to as directional. Since midrange and high-frequencies are directional, it becomes very important to place the speakers in the right locations.




Horns are great because they take the directional frequency ranges, and produce those sounds from a single-point source. (Instead of 2.. ie woofer and tweeter) If you have separate woofers and tweeters, then you are going to have some amount of space between those components. But since they are responsible for producing the majority of the sound we hear, and we can hear their location so well.... it's important that they me placed well.

In a home, this is easy. Just setup the speakers and set your chair at a point which creates an equilateral triangle with that speakers. Voila.... you're in the sweetspot. In a car, this isn't so easy.... because the driver and passenger sit to the side of the car. If the speakers are in the doors, then the driver is going to have sound from the left speaker arrive at his ears before sound from the right side does. This gives off the impression of being outside of the sweetspot.

There are 2 ways to overcome this issue in a car:

1. Speaker placement
2. Time Alignment

Speaker placement is the preferred method, but unfortunately the more difficult one. It involves installing the speakers in locations where their distance to the listeners on both sides of the car are more equal. The most common location is the kick panels (bottom corners of the footwells)

Time alignment is another method. Time alignment is simply processing applied before the sound is amplified which delays sounds to certain speakers. For example, you could add a short delay to the left side speakers to compensate for the driver. This method works well, but only for one listener. If you fix the image for the driver, then you'll make it worse for the passenger.




Horns use method 1. They install under the dash, in a location which is closer to equal between the driver and passenger. The other thing about horns is that they disperse their sound in a wider pattern than normal speakers. Speakers often must be aimed precisely in order to locate the sweet spot. Horns create a larger sweet spot, by dispersing their sound in a wider pattern. Horns are known for their superior stereo imaging (ability to recreate an accurate soundstage, with specific locations for instruments in the recording) They are also very power-efficient, often requiring only a fraction of the power of woofer/tweeter combos.

I had horns in my Acura Lagend, and they were absolutely amazing. I gave each horn it's own separate amplifier. One for left, one for right. And each horn had it's own 30-band equalizer. (So I had stereo, 1/3 octave EQs) I then installed 8 inch subwoofers in the front doors, which ran on an amp. And then three 10 inch subs in the trunk, on a 4th amplifier. Total power was about 850 watts.

After the Acura, I did an even more expensive system in my Lexus. I used Dynaudio speakers in that car, and kept the three 10 inch subs. I traded out the 4 amplifiers for 2 amps, but they had much more power. Total wattage in that system was 1800 watts. 1400 watts went just to the three 10 inch subs.


Both systems were great, but the Acura really stood out. Part of it was because the Acura Legend was one of the best cars ever built in terms of interior acoustics. But the horns played a big role, because I had done a system in that Acura before I got the horns.... and it was nowhere near the same.

subterFUSE

In cars, Bose's trickery primarily comes down to their use of ultra-low impedance levels.

Your typical home stereo runs speakers at 8 ohms. In the car world, speakers generally come in 4 ohm. To those who don't know, you can wire speakers together in a certain way and run them on an amplifier.... and cause that amplifier to work harder than it was intended. This is most commonly done with subwoofers, where they are wired in parallel. When you take 2 4 ohm speakers, and wire them in parallel... the result is a 2 ohm load to the amplifier. An amp which is rated at 200 watts @ 4 ohms will put out 400 watts @ 2 ohms. (So when you cut ohms in half, you double effective power)

Bose designs their speakers with very low impedance, which therefore increases the perceived power output from the amps. The drawback to this method is that amplifiers which are forced to play these types of loads always heat up faster, and it affects their performance. Think of it like a car. Do you want to operate your car near the redline all the time? No. Its the same with amplifiers. An amp might be rated to a certain power output, but you don't get the best performance by pushing the limits. It's better to have a strong amp, and let it work at a moderate level.

Since Bose uses unusual impedance levels for the amps and speakers, this is why most people that want to change out a Bose system are told that everything must go. In my Acura, which had a Bose system.... this was the case. 1/2 ohm speakers will cause a 4 ohm amplifier to burn up, unless the amp has heat protection circuitry. So you can't keep the Bose speakers, and replace the amps. And you can't change the speakers without changing the amps, too. It's all, or nothing. Bose does this to specifically lock the customer into their products. Kinda like how Apple uses the iTunes DRM to force people to keep buying iPods.

Another trick I have seen is something they do with Infinity. I have seen some Bose systems with speakers in the top of the driver and passenger seats. Talk about ridiculous. Those speakers serve no purpose other than to brag to your audio-ignorant friends about your new car that "Has everything on it..... it's even got speakers IN the seats."


With their home systems, particularly the systems with the small speakers.... Bose uses the trick of crossing over the subwoofer at a higher frequency than is desired. By letting the sub play higher-range frequencies, they give the illusion that the cube speakers are loud. But at the same time, they are destroying the intended reproduction of the music. A good test is to take your Bose cube setup, and disconnect all the speakers but the subwoofer. Then play a movie and see if you can understand the spoken dialogue. If you can understand the dialogue with only the subwoofer playing, then you'll know that the sub is crossed-over too high to compensate for the cube speakers. And this will adversely affect the perceived locations of sounds in the recording.

florus

You obviously read lots of stuff about audio and got some of it right and most of it wrong. Perhaps revisiting some books and trying to understand the physics behind it might help you get it better. Not the right place here to get into lengthy discussions so I will stop at that.

BTW, those $1000 cables do nothing for the sound you hear. The psychology of trying to justify the $1000 you just spent does... makes the sound wonderful.