In another post I had mentioned a problem I had with a frozen gas line using a full tank of premium Shell Gasoline.

The reason per a Mr. Ric Racing is per the following quote:



"Don't put any ethanol in the gas tank either.
Your cars engine is not planned for that.

Check out your gasoline dealer for what shit they are selling.

A proper BMW E60 i needs 98 octane gasoline, not the shit sold in the US."



I guess we Americans must travel to Europe now to fill up cause our gas per him is "shit".

What gives???

Oh, and this self proclaimed gasoline expert drives a diesel.

Well WTF? No wonder everyone stares and looks at me funny when I pull up at the gas station. :bash:

http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

• QuikTrip
• Chevron
• Texaco
• MFA Oil Co.
• Conoco
• Phillips 66
• 76
• Entec Stations
• Shell
• The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
• Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
• Aloha Petroleum
• Tri-Par Oil Co.
• Turkey Hill Minit Markets
• Mileage Stations
• Chevron Canada
• Shell Canada
• Petro-Canada
• Sunoco Canada

ricracing...gotta love some of his posts :doh: :lol:

Stupid Americans. We can't even get the refining of gasoline right. Sheesh.

I think he needs to put some of that 98 Octane finnish gas up his Diesel.

Its the simple fact that 98 RON octane European standard gasoline is the same as 93 (R+M)/2 Octane US gas.
Therefore 93 octane is recommended but the BMW minimum for US is usually 91.

I believe its also true to avoid ethanol blends. A service rep told me that once.

+1

I never cease to amazed by some of the posts proclaiming US gas to be crap, based solely on its octane rating, whilst failing dismally to realize that it's measured on a different scale over here...

Hmmm, ricracing and Richard in NC (ric and Rich)....anyone ever see these guys together anywhere??? :getlost: They COULD be the same guy!! :think: :lol:

+1 ... just for reference,

An Explanation of Fuel Octane Ratings:
http://www.torquecars.com/articles/f...ne-ratings.php

"Hmm. I don't think so Tim".

isn't it EPA mandated now that all gasoline sold at retail pumps in the U.S. have 10% ethanol added?

we don't have a choice in the matter I thought?

In most major metropolitan areas with heavy traffic, the EPA now mandates it. Here in Atlanta, you cannot legally purchase gas without ethanol in it (at least to my knowledge).

I find it funny that QuickTrip is listed as a top tier gas supplier, but BP and Exxon/Amoco aren't listed.

My understanding is that the minimum gasoline rating for the e60 is 91 (R+M/2) and that the cars engine can use ethanol blend up to 10% does not void the warranty(that is a paraphrase from my owner's manual)

Look, everyone knows our cars run off pure Vodka. This "American" fuel is just NOT sufficient for our engines. Don't listen to Ric, he's older than God.

You can get the direct conversions in an easy to read graph here:

http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/R...RONMONPON.html

i have been having some problems with my engine when it was cold. (it felt like the car was shifting up and down, with rpm jumping between 1500 and 2000, i posted about this on here). took it to the shop in houston several times and they kept telling me its because of the us gasoline. i thought they were completely crazy.

i just brought the car with me to europe for work, picked it up in bremerhaven, filled up at the first gas pump and my problem went away. instantly. my car has been having the above mentioned problem for 2 years EVERY time the engine was cold and now its gone.

needless to say, i did enjoy the 300 miles or so of autobahn on the way to prague :D

so, i have no clue what the octane difference between us and european gasoline is, but it seems that the ethanol additive may cause problems to some cars. i guess my dealer was correct.

FWIW - my 545i gas filler door label says I don't need euro 98 octane (US:93). It says I should fill up with euro 95 octane (US:91). I know I could fill up with 98 and probably get better performance, but shit dude, I gots me a V8 with 333 ponies, that's more than enough.

I expect only the M5 would be needing 98 (US:93).

hey guys, i must confess that over here (UK) we are constantly being told that US fuel is a "lower grade" than europian fuel? and that your cars are detuned for that. is that not the case?
jeremy clarkson from top gear is always saying how bad US petrol is?
its just what we hear over here
i do know that in asia (thialand for instance, and bali) have a much poorer grade of petrol.

i didnt realise the grades were the same.

I like Clarkson, a lot, but he's falling into same octane rating trap.

As for cars being detuned, again it's generally no and again I think it's broadly down to differences in measurement. There may be some slight differences due to emissions (as an example, the 545 and 550 had an additional charcol filter in the airbox that wasn't present on EU models), but by and large it's because the US uses a slightly different HP scale to Europe (there are different HP scales too, SAE gross, SAE net, DIN, PS for example - all measure the same thing, but they will produce slightly different results).

This seems to be one of the causes of the dreaded HPFP failure in 535I's.... only problem is that BMW does not seem to understand that the EPA has mandated in most Ozone action areas ( read in normal speak : A City in the USA) that RFG or Reformulated Gas due to Pollution...

RFG has a ton of Ethanol in it , and normal non RFG is now up to 10% ( that is a claim but most places are in the 15 -20 % ethanol in my area). It's not like it is a New thing here, you'd think that with the number of failures that they would figure that out.

I think if you send Rod Blagojevich $1,000 you can also be a "TopTier Gas" supplier.

I know in chicago I cant find any non-ethanol gas. But when it gets cold I want alcohol in the gas anyhow. Its like free "Heat".

Hahahahahaha! LOL! :lol: :lol:

He didn't really say this, did he? Hahahahahahahaha! :lol: :lol:

Yeah he did. lol Take a look at my earlier post on my frozen gas line issue.

Here are various excerpts from BMW SIBs on the topic of gasoline and additives.

SI B 13 01 06
Fuel System & Control September 2006 Technical Service

This Service Information bulletin supersedes S.I. B13 01 06 dated March 2006.
designates changes to this revision
SUBJECT
Alcohol Fuel Blends in BMW Vehicles

MODEL
All with gasoline engines

SITUATION
Fuel blends containing a high percentage (above 10%) of alcohol, mainly ethanol, are becoming more commercially available. Customers inquire about the possibility of using alcohol fuels (e.g. E85) in BMW vehicles.

INFORMATION
Fuels containing up to and including 10% of ethanol or other oxygenates with up to 2.8% oxygen by weight, that is, 15% MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) or 3% methanol plus an equivalent amount of co-solvent, will not void the applicable warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.

Although, usage of such alcohol fuel blends may result in drivability, starting, and stalling problems due to reduced volatility and lower energy content of the fuel. Those drivability problems may be especially evident under certain environmental conditions, such as: high or low ambient temperatures and high altitude.

Only specially adapted vehicles (FFV - Flexible Fuel Vehicles) can run on high alcohol fuel blends. BMW, for the various technical and environmental reasons explained below, does not offer FFV models.

Usage of E85, or any other high alcohol content blend (e.g. E30) in BMW vehicles, will cause various drivability complaints (cold start problems, stalling, reduced performance, poor fuel economy, etc.), may cause excessive emissions, and may cause irreversible damage to engine, emission control and fuel delivery systems due to incompatibility of materials with alcohols.

---

SI B 13 03 06
Fuel Systems May 2006 Technical Service

SUBJECT
Fuel Pump Failure after Refueling with Ethanol Fuel Blend

MODEL
All

SITUATION
Engine dies shortly after refueling, and cannot be restarted again.

CAUSE
Fuel contamination related to a recent introduction of ethanol fuel blends. Ethanol is used as an octane booster, and replaces MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) in many fuel formulations.

High levels of water and other residue contaminants may cause damage to a fuel delivery system.

The introduction of ethanol to existing storage tank and distribution systems has acted to absorb the build-up of water and free residual contaminants accumulating over a period of time at these locations and permits them to be pumped into vehicles at the time of refueling.

Aside from the engine not running, early tests on vehicles with severe contamination reveal, for example, oxidation as the cause for fuel pump seizure on the E46 and a clogged fuel filter as the cause for a ruptured in-tank fuel line on the E65/66 N73 (760Li/i).

CORRECTION
In case of a fuel delivery system failure after refueling, follow the procedure below:

Drain all contaminated fuel from the fuel tank and fuel lines.

Clean all deposits/residue from the bottom of the fuel tank.

Replace the fuel filter/regulator assembly

Replace the fuel pump if seized, or if the in-tank pressure line is ruptured.

NOTE: For more information related to ethanol fuel blends refer to SI B13 01 06 (Alcohol Fuel Blends in BMW Vehicles).

WARRANTY INFORMATION
BMW NA does not cover damage caused by contaminated fuel. Customers should be directed to the facility where the fuel was purchased.

---

SI B 13 04 06
Fuel Systems August 2006 Technical Service

SUBJECT
Alcohol Detection Procedure

MODEL
All Models

SITUATION
Fuel Blends containing a high percentage (10%and above) of alcohol, mainly ethanol, are becoming more commercially available. Usage of E85, or any other high alcohol content blend (e.g. E30) in BMW vehicles, will cause various drivability complaints (cold start problems, stalling, reduced performance, poor fuel economy, etc.), may cause excessive emissions, and may cause irreversible damage to engine, emission control and fuel delivery systems due to incompatibility of materials with alcohols. Refer to SI B13 01 06 Alcohol Fuel Blends in BMW Vehicles for complete details.

In order to correctly diagnose various drivability complaints caused by fuel blends with a high level of ethanol content, BMW is providing you with an alcohol detection test tool.

Distribution of the following tool will be through the Automatic Tool Shipment Program.

--

Here they are hawking their branded fuel system cleaner!!
SI B 13 05 06
Fuel Systems September 2006 Technical Service

SUBJECT
BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus

MODEL
All

SITUATION
Recent field experiences have shown a significant increase in various drivability complaints due to excessive carbon deposits in engine's combustion chambers, on the intake valves and fuel injectors.

The overall rise in carbon deposits accumulation is generally attributed to poor gasoline quality, namely, low level of cleaning additives and fuel contamination.

TECHNICAL BACKGROUND
Combustion chamber deposit formation is a by-product of the gasoline burning process. Fuel injector and intake valve deposits may become less troublesome with the recently introduced Top Tier Detergent Gasoline deposit control standards, which are exceeding the detergent requirements imposed by the EPA since 1995.

However, vehicles that do not exclusively use a Top Tier Detergent Gasoline, or are regularly driven in severe service conditions, such as stop-and-go traffic, high ambient temperatures, and high altitude can experience performance problems caused by intake system and combustion chamber deposits.

The most common customer complaints may include:

FUEL INJECTORS

Deposits at the injector's tip can impact fuel flow, upsetting the air/fuel mixture ratio.

Symptoms: Hesitation or stumble during acceleration, even loss of power. Poor fuel efficiency. Increased emissions of HC and CO. "Service Engine Soon" light illumination due to intermittent misfire faults, or lean mixture adaptation values

INTAKE VALVES:

Deposits at the valves and on the intake manifold ports can absorb fuel during the warm-up phase, leaning out the air/fuel mixture ratio. Carbon build-up may disturb mixture flow at low throttle conditions/idle speeds.

Symptoms: Poor drivability, loss of power, unstable/rough idle, increased emissions of HC, CO and NOx. "Service Engine Soon" light illumination due to intermittent misfire faults.

COMBUSTION CHAMBER:

Combustion Chamber Deposit Interference, or CCDI, occurs when there is a contact between carbon deposits on the piston crown and cylinder head. The noise can be confused or misdiagnosed as ping, knock or other noises that could indicate a mechanical failure. CCDI occurs first as a cold start noise that can fade as the engine warms to operating temperature. The noise will reoccur at the next cold start. As deposits build, there is an increase in compression temperature that may cause pre-ignition detonations.

Symptoms: Knocking, pinging, run-on, poor acceleration, octane requirement increase, increased emissions of NOx, engine idle speed surges.

Depending on the manufacturer, fuels may contain various additives such as: oxidation and corrosion inhibitors, metal deactivators, emulsifiers, anti-icing agents & dyes, plus they are required to include some form of an intake system deposit control package. Unfortunately, not all fuels are created equal, and some additive packages are not effective enough to maintain integrity of the intake systems in high performance engines, or engines operating in severe environmental conditions. Even worse, the intake system deposit control additives in some fuels may actually contribute to the combustion chamber deposits accumulation, and to the problems associated with those deposits: knock, run-on and increased emissions of oxides of nitrogen.

RECOMMENDATION
BMW recommends using TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline of minimum octane rating of AKI 91 and with alcohol content of less then 10% by volume (or any other oxygenates with up to 2.8% of oxygen by weight). Only the exclusive usage of TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline provides the full benefit of reducing deposits formation. For more information related to TOP TIER Gasoline refer to SI B13 02 06.

If the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is unavailable, we recommend BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus (PN 82 14 0 413 341) be added to the gas tank. For optimum cleaning and deposits control, add a 20 fl. oz. bottle every 3,000 miles when refueling.

--

SI B 13 07 06
Fuel Systems November 2006 Technical Service

SUBJECT
Gasoline Quality & Detergent Additives - Customer Information Brochure

MODEL
All

INFORMATION
In recent years, field experiences have shown a significant increase in various drivability complaints due to variations in fuel quality offered by different manufactures in the U.S.

The quality of gasoline is determined by many factors, with the percentage of alcohol (mainly ethanol) and the level of detergent additives becoming the key contributors.

To help BMW Technicians correctly understand and diagnose fuel drivability problems, the following Service Information Bulletins were published in TIS:

B13 01 06 ? Alcohol Fuel Blends in BMW Vehicles;

B13 02 06 ? Top Tier Detergent Gasoline in BMW Vehicles;

B13 03 06 ? Fuel Pump Failure after Refueling with Ethanol Blend;

B13 04 06 ? Alcohol Detection Procedure;

B13 05 06 ? BMW Group Fuel System Cleaner Plus.

It becomes extremely important to educate BMW consumers about importance of gasoline quality, and its influence on vehicle's drivability.

In order to help you communicate fuel quality related topics to your customers, BMW NA published a consumer brochure: "Beyond Octane ? How additives in gasoline are affecting your BMW's performance". Copy of this brochure is attached.

A couple more here and there but you can catch BMWs drift - Carbon build up and other issues related to fuel quality are NOT covered by BMW Warranty.....

Just love the feedback I got Veight by this tread,

Please tell us what was the problem after you had your car for a check up.

Can I get some?

Sure...it's family-sized :)

Ok, so simply going to the top-tier gas stations assures me of the best gasoline possible? Where I'm at, most of the gas stations are "top-tier", which is kinda weird. Shell, BP, and the 76 here turned into a Speedway about ten years ago.

Are you sure about that 15-20%? That much could definitely cause widespread problems.

RFG has 5.6% Ethanol, before RFG was dropped in 06:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg_regs.htm#usage

Gasohol (E10, with 10% Ethanol) is currently used throughout CA.

:unsure: :nono: :(

Gasoline could go from 10% ethanol up to 20%

By James R. Healey, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON ? Key backers of ethanol fuel are starting a push to double the amount of ethanol commonly blended with gasoline to 20%. The move would boost the market for grain alcohol, while skirting problems and controversy surrounding E85, an 85% ethanol fuel.

Blending ethanol ? alcohol typically now made from corn ? into gasoline is a way to cut petroleum use. A 10% ethanol blend, called E10, now is standard at many gasoline pumps across the USA. It can be used by virtually all gasoline vehicles, which is not true of the E85 being promoted as a fuel of the future.

Studies by the University of Minnesota and Minnesota State University at Mankato suggest that ordinary vehicles could burn a mix of 20% ethanol, called E20, as routinely and harmlessly as they now burn E10. Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty is to announce the study results at a conference here today.

"We see E20 not exactly as bypassing E85, but supplementing it," says Gene Hugoson, Minnesota agriculture commissioner.

A separate study, commissioned by the Renewable Fuels Association and not yet finished, will assess the environmental impact of doubling the alcohol.

Minnesota law requires 20% of fuel used be ethanol within a few years, making the matter more urgent there than elsewhere. The mandate could be satisfied if enough motorists burn E85 to raise the average to 20% ? or if E20 replaces E10 as the state's standard fuel.

Hitting the state's goal, as well as boosting U.S. ethanol use as much as the industry hopes, "will take awhile" relying on E85, Hugoson says. E85 availability remains limited mainly to the Midwest. It is potentially corrosive, making it hard to ship in pipelines and requiring special fuel system parts in vehicles. E85 also has far less energy than gasoline, so it takes more to go the same distance.

For E20 to become a legal fuel, however, it would need U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approval.

Automakers also have doubts that it is as benign as E10. They are running trials, but they say they do not have enough data on how risky E20 is to components and whether it would change emissions in unwanted ways.

"Our vehicles are able to handle E10, but to move to E20 there are technical issues. It's not that simple," says Ford Motor (F) spokeswoman Kristen Kinley.

General Motors (GM) spokesman Alan Adler says that in E20 tests in Australia, "40% of the vehicles sustained (catalytic converter) damage, which allowed essentially unchecked tailpipe emissions."

"We believe there's not data sufficient to prove that all vehicles will function OK with E20," says Reg Modlin, director of environmental affairs for Chrysler. "It's not a legal fuel, and it would void the warranty."

I know that when it gets cold I'd rather have the alcohol in my belly while sitting by my fireplace and puffing on a nice Fuentes. :D

I'd rather be [huffing and] puffing on a [Daisy] Fuentes.

True that! :twoup:

What can you expect ... when the air temperature hits 75, our brains are totally fried ^_^

(F=5/9C+32)

Be calm guys, ric is a good guy!

Dave, there in UK you have a superb fuel: my car there indicated almost 800 km with the full tank!!
It's more expensive than in Italy, France and Germany, but its quality is better.

A fact is that even under 5 % ethanol with low octane can make problems for the older 545i, 530i cars.

In EU even some under 3% cars have had problems.

1BRACE
isn't it EPA mandated now that all gasoline sold at retail pumps in the U.S. have 10% ethanol added?

geekmedic
In most major metropolitan areas with heavy traffic, the EPA now mandates it. Here in Atlanta, you cannot legally purchase gas without ethanol in it (at least to my knowledge).

esmolol
My understanding is that the minimum gasoline rating for the e60 is 91 (R+M/2) and that the cars engine can use ethanol blend up to 10% does not void the warranty(that is a paraphrase from my owner's manual)

If it's interesting to anybody, Germany decided NOT to put any ethanol in it's petrol:

link to english article

So cutting through the ridicule and reading the Tech bulletin from Cobradav, it seems that up to 10% ethanol will not void the warranty, but any ethanol content may well affect the smooth running and performance of some BMW's.

From what I have read here it seems much of the fuel in the US has ethanol added.

Is that not the point of what ricracing said, many US fuels by being of different composition to those in Europe can pose problems for BMW in the US?

I know he has apparently used the phrase 'lower quality' which might be an unfortunate choice of phrase, but is not the general drift fairly accutrate?

Well that's the reason Germany decided not to add Ethanol, because it's not good for the cars. According to this second article in English adding Ethanol will "rot the hoses and gaskets of millions of car engines".