dlevi67

Erm - an extra 80 bhp and about twice the torque may help... you should really compare the 535d with the 540i.

BetterMakeWay

...or tease a 545i by not giving up the fight

aosman

how about the handling?

TXPearl

The fact that we are even having this discussion, now 3 full years into the e60 lifecycle, is very telling.

See recent thread on I-drive for more e60 disappointment...

dlevi67

Mmm - yeah. Another way of looking at it is that the E39 redefined what a mid-size luxury saloon could "be", and it will probably be remembered for that for a long time to come. It's not that the E60 is not good, or even better than the E39. It's just not "that much" better.

Think Audi Quattro, the "original" M3 (E30) or 635 Csi (to pick some of the icons I remember "live" and that are probably valid worldwide). All cars that now are well past their best, and soundly beaten from an objective point of view by their modern equivalent, but still maintain a mystique and image that an RS4, E46 M3 or E63 M6 simply do not equal. Or perhaps even better - since those above are "special" cars - how about the original Mini or the Porsche 911 964/993?

swajames

I agree, it's easy to look back with nostalgia but you only have to drive an E39 and an E60 back to back to see the differences. To me it's clear that the E60 is a better car in every respect, but compared to its peers the gap is arguably smaller than it was when the E39 was available for sale - the E39's peers weren't as good as the peers the E60 needs to despatch. It's not just a five series issue. The same is true across the BMW range, though - competitors are getting much closer, if not arguably better in some cases. That's a product of one simple thing - it's much easier for the other manufacturers to follow and to have a target to aim at than it is to lead. It's much harder for BMW to have to continually keep its cars at the top of their respective class, and those model on model improvements don't come easy when the prior generation car was itself at the top of its game. That said, BMW did exactly what it set out to do and make the E60 a better car than the E39.

lawguy

Well said, swajames.

550isport

I wholeheartedly agree that it is easy to follow and most difficult to lead. And to lead successfully involves taking risks. BMW did this with the flame styling and it has proven to be a milestone in automotive design (particularly now that other manufacturers are copying elements of the new BMWs). And I completely agree that in shooting for BMW, Mercedes (CLS, new E), Audi (RS4) and Infinity (G) in particular have produced impressive cars that have narrowed and in some instances closed the competitive gap. So I reiterate my previous post and I urge BMW to distinguish itself from competitors in the same fashion that it has over the last 9 decades - by focusing its engineering efforts on building a safe and reliable car that is above all....significantly more performance oriented than its competitors. Take a 1987 Merc 560 SEL vs a 750il, or a 2001 E430 vs. a 540i: miles apart in a handling and ride comparision. I don't think you can say the same of an S550 vs. a 750Li any longer. The competition has raised the bar and BMW needs to respond with more performance! The 335i is a fantastic example of this philosophy. But the 5, 6 and 7 all need more sporty character (i.e. suspensions not just engines) injected into them. This is the risk that BMW must take (that is loosing the buyers that love the softness of the new 5, 6, and 7 cars). You must look to your strengths in times of need. BMW needs to beat its closing competitiors and its strenghts lie in producing reliable, near track-ready daily drivers that cause people to take the long way home. You shouldn't have to buy an M car to get this feeling.

Happy holidays,
DRP

dlevi67

I test drove a 2006 E320 CDI (estate), and it's not a patch in terms of handling on my E61 535d, though I agree there was a lot more difference in 1996... but you cannot blame competitors for learning.

BMW never produced "near track-ready daily drivers", with a few notable exceptions (first M3, E46 M3 CSL etc.) and these were mostly M-cars anyway. In this respect Porsche, Lamborghini and Ferrari (and Honda NSX) probably are the closest, at least with some of their models.

However, the thread is not about the competition, but about the E39 vs the E60...

pennetta

I agree whole heartedly, in fact the reason that I switched from my string of MB E series to the E39 was because of youthful style and performance. I have had two E39's and an E60 since and only recently has MB changed their image to be more youthful and performance orientated.