DSC and DTC confusion
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 09:09 AM
After all of this I still don't understand one thing - my main question to begin with!
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This is an action-packed thread, as threads go!
urbo... reports: "If you're taking your E60 to the track, you've bought the wrong car IMO. "
Respectfully, I could not disagree more. Here's why... bmwna chapters support 'track school'. The purpose of these schools is NOT racing; in fact, there's no passing allowed unless someone waves you by. Their purpose is to teach you where your and your car's limits are and exactly what will happen when you approach them and how to react/manage these situations. The pepole that run these schools do everything to make the environment safe and you have an instructor with you in your car. They are especially good for the youngsters among us, just learning how to drive. They learn very quickly that they do have limits. I can't recommend these schools highly enough, for whatever car you have, from the 7-series to the mini. They are amazing and probably the most fun that's possible to have in a weekend.
Sam
p.s. After three snowstorms in the northern virginia area, I haven't needed to use the dtc/dsc button yet. As my dad advised me once...I try and drive as if there's an egg between my foot and each of the pedals and I try and not break that egg. In other words, avoid sudden control changes. So far, so good. If treated well, there wasn't anything my 540i wouldn't get through and I'm hoping for the same from my 545i!!!!
urbo... reports: "If you're taking your E60 to the track, you've bought the wrong car IMO. "
Respectfully, I could not disagree more. Here's why... bmwna chapters support 'track school'. The purpose of these schools is NOT racing; in fact, there's no passing allowed unless someone waves you by. Their purpose is to teach you where your and your car's limits are and exactly what will happen when you approach them and how to react/manage these situations. The pepole that run these schools do everything to make the environment safe and you have an instructor with you in your car. They are especially good for the youngsters among us, just learning how to drive. They learn very quickly that they do have limits. I can't recommend these schools highly enough, for whatever car you have, from the 7-series to the mini. They are amazing and probably the most fun that's possible to have in a weekend.
Sam
p.s. After three snowstorms in the northern virginia area, I haven't needed to use the dtc/dsc button yet. As my dad advised me once...I try and drive as if there's an egg between my foot and each of the pedals and I try and not break that egg. In other words, avoid sudden control changes. So far, so good. If treated well, there wasn't anything my 540i wouldn't get through and I'm hoping for the same from my 545i!!!!
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
When did I say I took it to the track? I took it to test the DSC/DTC stuf in HUGE empty, icy parking lot with a long "runway" that let me get up to 45-50mph before getting into the lot. I don't plan to take the car to a track or back to that lot again. It was to test it.
Racing though is a different thing!
Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
Try drifting with the E60 and you'll laugh! Try tossing out the back going into a corner. Not the car for that. Feels like a fat guy running the 100 meter dash.
Drifting is no problem with the E60.
When you say it's not the car for that, you agree with my posts, that you should leave the DSC on!
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
And with it off, I don't need to worry about turning it off when I want wheelspin to go up a hill or dig myself out of snow, etc. The car is always the same, since I drive it the same.
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
Of course I agree that people make cars oversteer, and I'm not trying to even make any recommendation.
Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
I'm not sure how we got into this. My question was simply a techincal one as to how these systems are supposed to work, since deciphering the BMW literature is hard ![Wink](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/wink.gif)
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
It was not a question about IF I should have it on or off, etc.
Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
naturaly ability and less robotics ![Smile](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/smile.gif)
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 02:46 AM
Iceman's worst nightmare: A guy with DSC off and with his foglights on ![Wink](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/wink.gif)
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#24
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Originally Posted by sj3' date='Jan 31 2005, 12:29 PM
This is an action-packed thread, as threads go!?
urbo... reports:? "If you're taking your E60 to the track, you've bought the wrong car IMO. "
Respectfully, I could not disagree more.? Here's why...? bmwna chapters support 'track school'.? The purpose of these schools is NOT racing; in fact, there's no passing allowed unless someone waves you by.? Their purpose is to teach you where your and your car's limits are and exactly what will happen when you approach them and how to react/manage these situations.? The pepole that run these schools do everything to make the environment safe and you have an instructor with you in your car.? They are especially good for the youngsters among us, just learning how to drive.? They learn very quickly that they do have limits.? I can't recommend these schools highly enough, for whatever car you have, from the 7-series to the mini.? They are amazing and probably the most fun that's possible to have in a weekend.
Sam
p.s.? After three snowstorms in the northern virginia area, I haven't needed to use the dtc/dsc button yet.? As my dad advised me once...I try and drive as if there's an egg between my foot and each of the pedals and I try and not break that egg.? In other words, avoid sudden control changes.? So far, so good.? If treated well, there wasn't anything my 540i wouldn't get through and I'm hoping for the same from my 545i!!!!
urbo... reports:? "If you're taking your E60 to the track, you've bought the wrong car IMO. "
Respectfully, I could not disagree more.? Here's why...? bmwna chapters support 'track school'.? The purpose of these schools is NOT racing; in fact, there's no passing allowed unless someone waves you by.? Their purpose is to teach you where your and your car's limits are and exactly what will happen when you approach them and how to react/manage these situations.? The pepole that run these schools do everything to make the environment safe and you have an instructor with you in your car.? They are especially good for the youngsters among us, just learning how to drive.? They learn very quickly that they do have limits.? I can't recommend these schools highly enough, for whatever car you have, from the 7-series to the mini.? They are amazing and probably the most fun that's possible to have in a weekend.
Sam
p.s.? After three snowstorms in the northern virginia area, I haven't needed to use the dtc/dsc button yet.? As my dad advised me once...I try and drive as if there's an egg between my foot and each of the pedals and I try and not break that egg.? In other words, avoid sudden control changes.? So far, so good.? If treated well, there wasn't anything my 540i wouldn't get through and I'm hoping for the same from my 545i!!!!
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When I said track I think I was misunderstood. To me track IS racing - just because from past experience whenever I went to the track I would go to race. I understand what you and Iceman say however, and don't disagree. Just a different way of using the word "track". That's also why Iceman was saying that my lot was the same as a track and to me when I think track I think racing.
I also COMPLETELY agree that people should go learn the limits of their cars at a "track" or safe empty place. After all, we are BMW drivers, do we SHOULD care and know. I also agree, as I've said in one of my posts, that the best thing is KNOWING how to drive in bad conditions so you DON'T get into oversteers, etc. That's probably 90% of it. I'm an agressive driver, but not in bad weather.
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The E60 is not a race car, but it handles superb on track, with highspeeds and in extreme situations!
Drifting is no problem with the E60.
When you say it's not the car for that, you agree with my posts, that you should leave the DSC on!?
? Think about it!!?
? What you do when you turn it off is, you let it drift...
Drifting is no problem with the E60.
When you say it's not the car for that, you agree with my posts, that you should leave the DSC on!?
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Well, everything is said in this thread...
What does "DTC only" buy me over "DSC off" in this case? I either want wheelspin or not! What is this quasi wheelspin with limited DSC (braking) on the rear wheels? Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 06:23 PM
When I said track I think I was misunderstood.? To me track IS racing - just because from past experience whenever I went to the track I would go to race. I understand what you and Iceman say however, and don't disagree. Just a different way of using the word "track". That's also why Iceman was saying that my lot was the same as a track and to me when I think track I think racing.
I also COMPLETELY agree that people should go learn the limits of their cars at a "track" or safe empty place. After all, we are BMW drivers, do we SHOULD care and know. I also agree, as I've said in one of my posts, that the best thing is KNOWING how to drive in bad conditions so you DON'T get into oversteers, etc. That's probably 90% of it. I'm an agressive driver, but not in bad weather.
I also COMPLETELY agree that people should go learn the limits of their cars at a "track" or safe empty place. After all, we are BMW drivers, do we SHOULD care and know. I also agree, as I've said in one of my posts, that the best thing is KNOWING how to drive in bad conditions so you DON'T get into oversteers, etc. That's probably 90% of it. I'm an agressive driver, but not in bad weather.
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You see, we are basically saying the same, but our definition of some words is different.
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 06:40 PM
Look, if you can drive a RWD car well, you can pretty much drift any car the way you want to. Now that doesn't mean that the car is meant for that. What I was saying is that? the E60 is a SEDAN first. If I want to drift, spin, do 180s, and race, then I'm sticking to the fact that the E60 IS the wrong car for that.? YES I can do it,? but it's silly, not as agile, cumbersome, etc. The car wasn't meant for that type of driving. That's M category. Or GT cars. Not a 5 series! Also what do you mean by "when you turn [DSC] off is, you let it drift"? Drifting is a CONTROLLED thing you do - at least when I talk about it. I'm not talking about sliding into a wall! Drifiting to me is coming out of a corner smoothly, etc. Drifting on purpose! As in when you race or do a lap around a race track to get the fastest times. DSC has nothing to do with that. Yeah if you turn off DSC and you can't control your car you will drift into a wall....
![Unsure](https://5series.net/forums/images/smilies/imported/unsure.gif)
Anyways, an E60 is not meant for racing, I agree. Drifting, the controlled way of drifting, sure is fun, but most ppl can't do it in the controlled way and just let the car oversteer uncontrolled.
Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 06:40 PM
Well, everything is said in this thread...
What does "DTC only" buy me over "DSC off" in this case? I either want wheelspin or not! What is this quasi wheelspin with limited DSC (braking) on the rear wheels? Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it
You said you tested it, but to find out the difference you need to be on ice or snow.
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I think I can add to the explanation of this without regurgitating others' words.
When you push DTC once you are changing traction control to dynamic traction control. In other words, the traction control goes from very restrictive to less intervention. You can use this where you might need to spin the wheels like if stuck in snow. Stability control is still in effect.
Push and hold and the whole traction control and stability control is off. There will be no brake intervention at the wheels and oversteer (sometimes massive oversteer) is allowed. Think powerslide.
When you push DTC once you are changing traction control to dynamic traction control. In other words, the traction control goes from very restrictive to less intervention. You can use this where you might need to spin the wheels like if stuck in snow. Stability control is still in effect.
Push and hold and the whole traction control and stability control is off. There will be no brake intervention at the wheels and oversteer (sometimes massive oversteer) is allowed. Think powerslide.
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Jan 31 2005, 08:09 AM
After all of this I still don't understand one thing - my main question to begin with!
Basically from what I read, "DTC only" allows wheelspin + DBC braking of the rear wheels (i.e. limited DSC in the rear). My question all along has been basically this:
What does "DTC only" buy me over "DSC off" in this case? I either want wheelspin or not! What is this quasi wheelspin with limited DSC (braking) on the rear wheels? Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it.
Basically from what I read, "DTC only" allows wheelspin + DBC braking of the rear wheels (i.e. limited DSC in the rear). My question all along has been basically this:
What does "DTC only" buy me over "DSC off" in this case? I either want wheelspin or not! What is this quasi wheelspin with limited DSC (braking) on the rear wheels? Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it.
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DSC is dynamic control so it works best in motion. It's main difference from DTC is that DSC also retards engine power (DTC does not). DSC applies brakes to front and rear wheels individually.
DTC is tracktion control - it serves the role of the LSD (Limited slip differential ) but poorly. It applies brakes individually to rear wheels only. So if one weel is on ice one on dry pavement you should be able to move forward with DTC on, but you'll stand still with all systems off since Open Dif will just spin the wheel on ice.
So from a standstill it's best to just have DTC on to start moving and then turn DSC on when you are on the way (in snow that is)
There is one catch - if both rear wheels are on ice - DTC will try to clamp the brakes on both of them and therefore rob all the power from the engine - again you are not moving. In this casew you should turn all the system off and spin yourself out of snow. Be careful without LSD your rear will slide all over the place and even at 5mph you'll hit curbs and walls.
That's the main reason I bitch so much about lack of LSD in 545.
M3 or M5 (which have LSD) behave much better on ice and therefore don't even need DTC button. They only have DSC switchable.
here are some links to read:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm
http://www.bmw.com/generic/com/en/fascinat...uide/index.html
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Ilyam5,
Finally I got it. For some reason I thought the 5 already HAD a LSD. I'm surprised to find out now that it doesn't! Wow! So that's why the lame DTC only button/mode is there. THAT is what I couldn't understand. I understand differentitals, but just assumed the 5 has an LSD not an open one - how lame is THAT? That's why I said "[it] Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it." Because I was thinking with an LSD what do I gain with DTC only vs DSC off. And the answer is NOTHING! But as it turns out I don't have an LSD
So that was the confusion. Now it all makes sense. What a COMPLETE HACK! I guess more so to my point about the E60 not being meant to be a racing/track car. Seems to be true. What a mess! Yuck!
Finally I got it. For some reason I thought the 5 already HAD a LSD. I'm surprised to find out now that it doesn't! Wow! So that's why the lame DTC only button/mode is there. THAT is what I couldn't understand. I understand differentitals, but just assumed the 5 has an LSD not an open one - how lame is THAT? That's why I said "[it] Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it." Because I was thinking with an LSD what do I gain with DTC only vs DSC off. And the answer is NOTHING! But as it turns out I don't have an LSD
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Originally Posted by urbo73' date='Feb 1 2005, 11:07 AM
Ilyam5,
Finally I got it.? For some reason I thought the 5 already HAD a LSD. I'm surprised to find out now that it doesn't! Wow! So that's why the lame DTC only button/mode is there. THAT is what I couldn't understand. I understand differentitals, but just assumed the 5 has an LSD not an open one - how lame is THAT?? That's why I said "[it] Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it." Because I was thinking with an LSD what do I gain with DTC only vs DSC off. And the answer is NOTHING! But as it turns out I don't have an LSD
So that was the confusion. Now it all makes sense. What a COMPLETE HACK! I guess more so to my point about the E60 not being meant to be a racing/track car. Seems to be true. What a mess! Yuck!
Finally I got it.? For some reason I thought the 5 already HAD a LSD. I'm surprised to find out now that it doesn't! Wow! So that's why the lame DTC only button/mode is there. THAT is what I couldn't understand. I understand differentitals, but just assumed the 5 has an LSD not an open one - how lame is THAT?? That's why I said "[it] Seems like a lot of hodepodge to me. And it sure felt like it when I tested it." Because I was thinking with an LSD what do I gain with DTC only vs DSC off. And the answer is NOTHING! But as it turns out I don't have an LSD
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