08n54

Why would you use a triple plate clutch for 360hp honda? I used a single 4 plug clutch on my 450hp integra with no issues. A triple plate clutch would cost over $2000. I did switch to a twin disc and I still daily drive it and it's not a hassle at all. Why anyone would get a 550i when you can get a cheaper and a LOT fast 535i/xi is beyond me. 550's are slow compared to a 535. Adding a $10k super charger to a 550 will still be tons slower to a FBO 535 with RB turbos and it still will be cheaper.

bdubs

I think the better question is, why would anyone want to mod a Honda period?

08n54

Many reasons to mod a honda. For me it was cheap car to get running 10's.

bdubs

I was just giving you some crap. I've never cared for Hondas, but you can get them to make some good power. Honda designs a nice cylinder head.

Mike_K

People make the comparison because the 535 already comes with a power adder on it and can be turned into a rocket for less than $600. So for $600 I can make my 535 ridiculously fast and have a setup that literally over 10,000 other people have or I can spend an additional $6000+ on my 550 and have a supercharger setup that maybe 100 people have and if I have problems with it I don't have the experiences of thousands of other people to glean information from.

The 550 is an amazing car but its best left stock. The 535, not so much. Here's a post I made last time this topic came up.

pjinca

It's more than just the speed or power. The 550's tend to be better optioned, also more reliable. I can add the SC kit and keep reliability, I can point you to dozens of posts on other forums detailing the loss of reliability and damage in highly modded 535/335/135 cars. Thanks, but I plan on keeping my car for a while, then reselling for a good price later.


I modded mine as a weekend race car, not a street car. As a privateer racer the Honda was perfect, VERY dependable engine, never even rebuilt it in 4 yrs of racing. Upgrade parts are cheap compared to other brands - even Acura. Plus it was a blast smoking Corvettes both off the line and through corners. Back then I raced against some familiar names with much better backing than I had (Joey Hand, Bill Auberlain, etc).

Mike_K

Of course there are going to be some people out there that have some issues with a modded car but the modified 335/ 535s are painfully reliable and that's not generally something people bother to dispute because the facts go against any such claim. The tunes have a tendency to expose the vehicle's existing weaknesses such as coils, injectors or high pressure fuel pump but these are often warranted, inexpensive to fix if they're not and you also have the benefit of having the experience of 14,000+ people running the same tuner (at least in the case of the JMB ). Don't fool yourself into thinking that supercharging a 550 wouldn't expose a whole different set of weaknesses; only you would be one of how many people to have done that? So you'd be on your own for troubleshooting the problem.

If you take a step back and objectively look at the two cars a modified 535 is going to be faster, most likely more reliable, easier to fix if it breaks and cheaper to purchase not to mention lighter in the front end by 200+ lbs which results in a notable improvement. Take the time to find one that's well equipped and yes, it's hard to consider why anyone would choose to modify a 550 over a 535 and this is coming from a previous owner of an E60 M5 & 550.

pjinca

I think you misread my statements or there is no way you could've wrote yours with a straight face. First, to claim the 535/335/135 (N54) is a very reliable platform is laughable, just read through the E60 discussion section and compare the number of 535 posts vs the 550 posts. I am not talking about JB4 mods, that is a mild mod that probably doesn't put a ton of stress on the systems. I am talking about the "claimed" 600WHP that some tuners tout (even though no one has seen any of these cars or seen dynos, or timeslips as of yet). One thing I have learned from tuning just about every single car I have ever owned is that you are a lot more successful when you start with a strong reliable platform. A car like the x35 cars, that has had thousands of issues, recalls, even class action lawsuits and hundreds of lemoned cars is not exactly ideal. Also you will never reach the 600+HP plateau with just injectors, coils, and fuel pump. Nope, you need a huge turbo, better cooling system, stronger trans -driveshaft - diff, and ultimately stronger internals like crank shafts, connecting rods, pistons, lifters, camshafts, and (most of the time) an upgraded lubrication system. All of which would be required for the car to handle 20-25 psi reliably.
Which would all cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than the claimed "under $10k".
The engine alone in my old Accord ran reliably because it had thousands invested in it to ensure reliability. It did have a dry sump oil system and oil cooler, forged crank - connecting rods - pistons - even stainless sleeves in the cylinders, upgraded cams, custom ECU software, even the heads were ported and polished. The gearbox was a custom racing unit, so were the axles. All this so I could actually try to compete with 20 PSI of boost.
So you're going to seriously tell me the x35 cars running 20+ PSI of boost will be more reliable than a 550 running 6 PSI? Really? Seriously? Yes, it will produce about 100 more HP, but as the AT guys are already learning, the slush box can't handle the 420+ HP they already have at stage 2 kits. Of the stage 3 kits out there, none are perfected for reliability. The stage 2 kits produce about the same WHP as the ESS SC kit for the 550, which is to say ~420 with other mods (ESS website lists a 550 that is otherwise stock) and produces 398WHP with the kit, with exhaust and intake mods plus injectors, pump, and coils 420-440 WHP should be easily attainable in the 550. And that's sticking with 6 PSI of boost, if boost levels rise there could be a lot more possible.

Mike_K

That's exactly the claim I'm making. Other than the engine, the 550 and 535 are identical and the 535s problems have all been addressed but even if you bought one where they weren't, your not looking at an expensive bill to fix them. Coils, injectors and high pressure fuel pumps are generally the worst of what you'll find. Some have the noisy wastegates too. Nonetheless, the pump is warranted to 125,000 miles and the waste gates/ turbos to 83,000 miles and the newer parts don't exhibit the same failures as the originals. And this is pretty much the extent of the issues you'll have if you mod them too. Likewise, these are all ancillary parts. The actual engine is about as stout as you can get and I care way more about having to replace an engine then having to replace a bad fuel pump or coils.

The more obvious point is that so many people are actively modifying these engines that diagnosing them has become very easy, another benefit to the N54.

We'll agree to disagree. The engine's problems are well documented and simple to address. Other than that it's running one of the best 6 speed automatics you can have and is tied to one of the best overall platforms around. It's a perfect car to build off of. To insinuate that an engine is a poor choice to build off of because its accessories used to fail is a silly assertion, especially when you consider the ease and expense of replacing those components and the fact that the engine itself has no history of failing, even when modified, which should be WAY higher on your list of importance than having to worry about trivial things like failing coils or high pressure fuel pumps. I'd rather replace a high pressure fuel pump once a year out of pocket than find out first hand the hard way what the threshold is for how much boost the N62 can tolerate and it's a silly example anyhow since again, the high pressure pumps generally don't fail that much any more and when they do they're warranted so long as you're under 125,000 miles. Which brings up another point... My 535 is warranted. If something fails I pop off my tuner and bring it in. 20 minutes. Are you going to remove that blower and strap your upper intake manifold back on every time you get an oil change?

I don't know where the 600 hp mark you keep mentioning came from. I assume it was mentioned earlier in the thread... 450 - 470 at the crank is pretty easily attainable with an e85 mix, jb4 and dci. There's a video of a 535 doing 400+ whp on just these mods in my post a few up. $600 initial investment and you have a car with incredible power. No low production supercharger kit and none of the issues that come with that kind of setup either and if a part fails chances are someone else has been there and done that. If you want to go nuts you can add larger turbos and still have invested a lot less money than a 550/ supercharger.

Then we come to the issue of ancillary parts such as the pistons, rods, etc you mentioned. Let me sidetrack for a minute... I own a company that modifies GM's 3800 engines. In the early years people in the community insisted that to make big power you needed to have forged pistons, stronger connecting rods, etc but by and large the engines had almost no failures unless they exhibited knock which they wouldn't do on a proper setup. The engine is so resilient that we can remove the supercharger, install an intercooled turbo setup at 17lbs, make 500hp and have no concerns about the engine blowing. Until very recently there were Grand Prixs running 9 second quarter mile passes on nothing more than junkyard blocks. Now of course this isn't the norm. On many platforms you do need to reinforce the bottom end but to insinuate that it's a must on the 535 and wouldn't be on the 550 is pure speculation on your part. You're taking your experience with your Accord and applying it to everything but it doesn't work that way.

In fact, It hasn't been since the 3800 that I've seen an engine as resilient to power as the N54. I can't think of a single post I've come across where someone has seriously damaged their engine. I'm sure there are people out there who have but you just don't see it with any kind of degree of regularity. The PCM acts really quickly to mitigate knock. Say what you will about the N54 but its ability to handle power is not its weak point. The ancillary components are and as I already mentioned, their replacements are both cheap and in most cases don't suffer from the same failings as the original parts.

I'm telling you that different engines react differently to boost and that what you did to your accord has zero relevance to the 535 or 550. None at all. The fundamentals might be right but they don't necessarily apply to all platforms. 20lbs of boost in our 3800s doesn't require almost any of the modifications you listed as being necessary on your accord. Likewise, the 535 mill was built with forced induction in mind, the 550 was not.

I'm also saying that with the 535 you know what you're going to get. There are tens of thousands of other people out there doing the same thing you're doing so results are very predictable. You're not treading new ground and if and when you run into issues you have the experiences of all those people to fall back on. You don't need to find the one other guy with an ESS supercharger and say "Hey Joe... Did your number 6 piston pop out of the hood when you upped the boost 1 lb?".

Further examples... The early 2000's Mustang V8s could handle very limited amounts of boost before requiring significant engine upgrades whereas the 3800s my company modifies can run high teens without any kind of required engine modifications.

So then, you have someone that wants say 450 up at the crank out of their E60. They have the choice of buying the car that's already equipped with force induction and can get them to their target horsepower number with minimal fuss all while being able to glean from the experiences of the other tens of thousands of people modifiying the same engine or they can pay thousands more for a 550, pay thousands for a supercharger kit that realistically probably under 100 people own, have a much smaller sample of experience to learn from, install the setup on an engine who's reaction to boost is not well known because it's very rarely done and then have a car that gets exponentially worse gas mileage.

Yeah, no I don't get where you're coming from all... Maybe if the 550 was commonly modified or there was an inexpensive supercharger kit out there for it your arguments would make sense but that's not reality. There is literally no good reason I can see for picking the 550 over the 535 if you're going to modify them which is why I promptly dumped my beloved 550 once my desire for power exceeded the 550's abilities. In my opinion, once you reach the power limitations of the N54 you're better off skipping the 550 and going right to the M5. Which isn't to say the 550 is horrible. It's actually great right out of the box. There just so happen to be two better E60s available if overall power is your ultimate goal.

pjinca

Mike, funny thing is we agree without agreeing (if that sounds right), I am not saying the 535 cannot handle 450-470 you mentioned. Another poster posted about much higher HP coming out of the kits out there. And no, I don't think the engine will easily handle THAT kind of HP. I also don't see how the 535 engine is more capable of handling 450-470 than the 550's engine. The Supercharger kit gives the 550 around 480 HP, which should be right in the wheelhouse of the base engine. In fact, I would argue that the 550's N62 engine is more reliable with a supercharger than the M5's S85, which is a MUCH more delicate powerplant.
The previous poster claimed that there were kits out there for the 535 that produced 600WHP, and my contention is that there is no way that engine, trans and drivetrain can handle that in stock form. And the modifications to make it possible would render the car basically a track only car.
I mean, c'mon, there is supposedly an Xi version from Vishnu with 610WHP - with no modification to the rest of the drivetrain. Really? Granted, no one has seen it, or the dyno runs, or the timeslips. However, the claim that the bone stock trans and transfer case can handle that? Do you really think so? Sounds similar to claiming those 1200HP Supras have stock drivetrains.