Why won't BMW just do the right thing
02-18-2007, 06:48 AM
#11
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Thanks for all the replies. Here is a quick update...
It's apparent that the dealer is not willing to absorb any costs to get us into another vehicle. In fact, it appears as though they are looking at this as an opportunity for an up-sale.
After scouring BMWUSA.com CPO website, there is nothing currently available that has the same options / colors so some compromise would have to be made to get into another car. BTW...we did secure a very low price for the existing car...not likely to be so lucky with a replacement. Although we have given a list of CPO's that we would be OK with to the dealer and they have said they will try and see if they can work something out with the other dealer...we will see.
For those closet mechanics out there...I have reviewed the records of the repairs done so far and the problem the car is having is that the eccentric shaft for the valvetronic system is not responding (or does not appear to respond) to commands from the computer. Item replaced so far: eccentric shafts, intermediate levers, valvetronic actuator servomotors and the eccentric shaft position sensors. The only valvetronic system components that have not been replaced are: the valvetronic control module, and the engine control computer. Both of those items can be replaced quickly if the dealer is willing to do so.
How does the dealer get authorization from BMW to replace components under warranty? i.e. If they reach the point where everything in the valvetronic system has been replaced, but the problem remains...is that justification enough for the dealer to replace the engine or at least the cylinder head assemblies? How do very expensive repairs get authorized? Is there any use in providing feedback to BMW on the experience we have recieved so far? If so, what would be the most effective method of delivery for the feedback?
Thanks!
It's apparent that the dealer is not willing to absorb any costs to get us into another vehicle. In fact, it appears as though they are looking at this as an opportunity for an up-sale.
After scouring BMWUSA.com CPO website, there is nothing currently available that has the same options / colors so some compromise would have to be made to get into another car. BTW...we did secure a very low price for the existing car...not likely to be so lucky with a replacement. Although we have given a list of CPO's that we would be OK with to the dealer and they have said they will try and see if they can work something out with the other dealer...we will see.
For those closet mechanics out there...I have reviewed the records of the repairs done so far and the problem the car is having is that the eccentric shaft for the valvetronic system is not responding (or does not appear to respond) to commands from the computer. Item replaced so far: eccentric shafts, intermediate levers, valvetronic actuator servomotors and the eccentric shaft position sensors. The only valvetronic system components that have not been replaced are: the valvetronic control module, and the engine control computer. Both of those items can be replaced quickly if the dealer is willing to do so.
How does the dealer get authorization from BMW to replace components under warranty? i.e. If they reach the point where everything in the valvetronic system has been replaced, but the problem remains...is that justification enough for the dealer to replace the engine or at least the cylinder head assemblies? How do very expensive repairs get authorized? Is there any use in providing feedback to BMW on the experience we have recieved so far? If so, what would be the most effective method of delivery for the feedback?
Thanks!
02-19-2007, 09:32 PM
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My initial reaction was how many times does a car have to warn you not to buy it?
Given the car?s problems, if the dealer is still willing to refund the money, take the money and run.
Do not stop, do not pass go. Just take the money and run. There are other BMWs out there - yours will always be in the workshop.
Given the car?s problems, if the dealer is still willing to refund the money, take the money and run.
Do not stop, do not pass go. Just take the money and run. There are other BMWs out there - yours will always be in the workshop.
02-19-2007, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JSpira' post='393388' date='Feb 19 2007, 10:32 PM
My initial reaction was how many times does a car have to warn you not to buy it?
Given the car?s problems, if the dealer is still willing to refund the money, take the money and run.
Do not stop, do not pass go. Just take the money and run. There are other BMWs out there - yours will always be in the workshop.
Given the car?s problems, if the dealer is still willing to refund the money, take the money and run.
Do not stop, do not pass go. Just take the money and run. There are other BMWs out there - yours will always be in the workshop.
I second this option.
Rent a car for a few weeks while you keep looking and get your money back while you still can.
02-25-2007, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Newbiewan' post='392484' date='Feb 17 2007, 08:49 AM
Greetings All,
It is with great sadness that my first post to this very informative forum has to be a negative one
The Wife and I have grown to trust german engineering and quality based on very good experiences with Porsche over the years, so when it came time for the wife to upgrade her auto last summer, we thought it would be great to try out a BMW. We immediately fell in love with the 545 and started sizing up the options for the perfect used car. After searching for months...we finally stumbled across a beautiful '05 Black Sapphire/Black Nasca leather 545 CPO with all the goodies (Ventillated/heated seats, Comfort Seats, Active Cruise Control, NAV, Sport Package, Premium Sound, and last but not least Fold Down rear seats) with only 23k miles. A quick call to the dealer to confirm availability and we were off on our way for a test drive! Here is where our saga gets interesting...
1) Salesman meets us with the keys and starts up the car. I notice the idle seems rough, but the salesman assures me that it is normal. When I get behind the wheel I notice that the check engine light is on. Embarassed, the salesman has the service department immediately check tha car out while I take the wife to lunch. During lunch, salesman shows up driving the car and telling me that the service dept says the engine light was probably caused by a loose gas cap and not to worry. After all it's a CPO...right? Taking their word...after lunch we take it for a test drive. Everything is wonderful until about 2 miles down the interstate when the check engine light comes on again but this time it was accompanied by a staggering loss of all power and drivabiity (apparently it is some sort of fail safe mode). Anyway, after being picked up by the side of the road...we informed the salesman that we wer not interested in inheriting someone else's problems and to call us if they are certain that they understand what the problem is and fix the car. Upset and dissappointed over the experience we headed home.
2) After some followup phone calls from the salesman, we were notified that the problem was solved and that they would drop the car off at our home to test drive over the weekend. Shortly after it arrived...we happily started off for an evening of test driving only to be rudely awakened when the problem reoccured!!! Embarassed again, the salesman picked up the car and headed back to the service department for round 2.
3) After receiving assurances from the service department that the problem was a couple of servo motors in the valvetronic system and that parts were on order for the final fix, we went ahead and prepared an offer contingent upon successful resolution of the problem. They accepted the offer, we sent in a deposit and waited for the call to tell us the car was done! That day finally arrived a few days after signing the offer and we were glad to be done searching for our next auto. Like kids on the first day of school, we were very excited to go and pick up the car. After a quick test drive, we signed all to papers and headed home in our new (well to us at least) BMW! The next day, to our amazement the problem happened again...we thought $%#@ how is this possible...is their service department really that incompetant? We returned the car for round 3.
4) At this point, I had lost faith in the service department, so I forwarded some service bulletins I fould on this forum which seemed to describe the problem we were observing with the valvetronic system. Knowing how difficult intermittent problems cann be to troubleshot...I was careful to explain that I did not want htem to feel any time preessure and that the most important thing to me was finally fixing the problem. After 3 weeks of rarely returned phone calls, eventually the majority of the valvetronic system was replaced (eccentric shafts, intermediate levers, and other bits). The service department rep called me and infromed me the car was ready... By now you can probably guess what happened after we picked up the car...that's right, but not until the next morning
Anyway...completely dumbfounded, we send it back for round 4.
5) This time, we sent instructions to the service department manager that we wanted the engine replaced or our money back (hoping that BMW would do the right ting and solve the problem once and for all). We scratched our head as the service manager explained to us how they can't just replace an engine without clear justification that it is the problem. Reluctantly we agreed to give them one last shot at fixing the problem. After 3 more weeks, and a visit by the Regional BMW service guru, it was decided to replace the sensors that monitor the valvetronic system (not sure what they are called). They replaced them and drove the car for over 200 miles fault free. Finally problem soalved right! Wrong! This evening we went to pick up the car and only got 3 miles away when it happened again!
Initial Conclusion...
My own fault...how stupid could you be for buying a car that breaks down during the test drive? (Answer...too much faith in service department and CPO)
Facts...
Dealer has agreed to refund our money if we wish.
Dealer has also commented that they would work with us if we are interested in a 335 or possible a 550, but no firm commitments.
Dealer gives us same song and dance about the possibility of completely replacing the engine!
Wife LOVE's the car when it is working properly...willing to wait for a proper repair.
Here is my delema...
After hours of searching for comparable cars...it's looking like it could be months more of searching ahead before the right car (used 545 with same options) comes along. Previous car has already been sold...other two cars are manual transmission and therefore wife can't/won't drive them.
Do we take our money and run...and absorb the cost of temporary transportation while searching (possible months) for the right car?
335 is too small for our needs and 550 is too expensive if suitably optioned (compared to what we paid for the 545) and it's not likely the dealer will be willing to make up the difference just to make us happy.
We just want the car fixed...why can't BMW just bite the bullet and replace the engine rather than using it's customers as guinny pigs while they troubleshoot without any real smoking gun pointing them to the source of the problem?
Wouldn't taking our money and running essentailly be encouraging BMW to take the easy way out of a difficult situation...? And even worse, passing on the costs of their service department's incompetence onto our shoulders in the form of a compromised short-term auto purchase out of necessity or the cost of temporary transportation?
Or should we just abandon BMW altogether? My gut tells me that we are just victims of an incompetent service department and clearly there are plenty of happy BMW customers out there...it's just getting very hard to listen to over the grumbling
Any of you have similar experiences? Any of you pushed for engine replacement with any success?
It is with great sadness that my first post to this very informative forum has to be a negative one
The Wife and I have grown to trust german engineering and quality based on very good experiences with Porsche over the years, so when it came time for the wife to upgrade her auto last summer, we thought it would be great to try out a BMW. We immediately fell in love with the 545 and started sizing up the options for the perfect used car. After searching for months...we finally stumbled across a beautiful '05 Black Sapphire/Black Nasca leather 545 CPO with all the goodies (Ventillated/heated seats, Comfort Seats, Active Cruise Control, NAV, Sport Package, Premium Sound, and last but not least Fold Down rear seats) with only 23k miles. A quick call to the dealer to confirm availability and we were off on our way for a test drive! Here is where our saga gets interesting...
1) Salesman meets us with the keys and starts up the car. I notice the idle seems rough, but the salesman assures me that it is normal. When I get behind the wheel I notice that the check engine light is on. Embarassed, the salesman has the service department immediately check tha car out while I take the wife to lunch. During lunch, salesman shows up driving the car and telling me that the service dept says the engine light was probably caused by a loose gas cap and not to worry. After all it's a CPO...right? Taking their word...after lunch we take it for a test drive. Everything is wonderful until about 2 miles down the interstate when the check engine light comes on again but this time it was accompanied by a staggering loss of all power and drivabiity (apparently it is some sort of fail safe mode). Anyway, after being picked up by the side of the road...we informed the salesman that we wer not interested in inheriting someone else's problems and to call us if they are certain that they understand what the problem is and fix the car. Upset and dissappointed over the experience we headed home.
2) After some followup phone calls from the salesman, we were notified that the problem was solved and that they would drop the car off at our home to test drive over the weekend. Shortly after it arrived...we happily started off for an evening of test driving only to be rudely awakened when the problem reoccured!!! Embarassed again, the salesman picked up the car and headed back to the service department for round 2.
3) After receiving assurances from the service department that the problem was a couple of servo motors in the valvetronic system and that parts were on order for the final fix, we went ahead and prepared an offer contingent upon successful resolution of the problem. They accepted the offer, we sent in a deposit and waited for the call to tell us the car was done! That day finally arrived a few days after signing the offer and we were glad to be done searching for our next auto. Like kids on the first day of school, we were very excited to go and pick up the car. After a quick test drive, we signed all to papers and headed home in our new (well to us at least) BMW! The next day, to our amazement the problem happened again...we thought $%#@ how is this possible...is their service department really that incompetant? We returned the car for round 3.
4) At this point, I had lost faith in the service department, so I forwarded some service bulletins I fould on this forum which seemed to describe the problem we were observing with the valvetronic system. Knowing how difficult intermittent problems cann be to troubleshot...I was careful to explain that I did not want htem to feel any time preessure and that the most important thing to me was finally fixing the problem. After 3 weeks of rarely returned phone calls, eventually the majority of the valvetronic system was replaced (eccentric shafts, intermediate levers, and other bits). The service department rep called me and infromed me the car was ready... By now you can probably guess what happened after we picked up the car...that's right, but not until the next morning
Anyway...completely dumbfounded, we send it back for round 4.5) This time, we sent instructions to the service department manager that we wanted the engine replaced or our money back (hoping that BMW would do the right ting and solve the problem once and for all). We scratched our head as the service manager explained to us how they can't just replace an engine without clear justification that it is the problem. Reluctantly we agreed to give them one last shot at fixing the problem. After 3 more weeks, and a visit by the Regional BMW service guru, it was decided to replace the sensors that monitor the valvetronic system (not sure what they are called). They replaced them and drove the car for over 200 miles fault free. Finally problem soalved right! Wrong! This evening we went to pick up the car and only got 3 miles away when it happened again!
Initial Conclusion...
My own fault...how stupid could you be for buying a car that breaks down during the test drive? (Answer...too much faith in service department and CPO)
Facts...
Dealer has agreed to refund our money if we wish.
Dealer has also commented that they would work with us if we are interested in a 335 or possible a 550, but no firm commitments.
Dealer gives us same song and dance about the possibility of completely replacing the engine!
Wife LOVE's the car when it is working properly...willing to wait for a proper repair.
Here is my delema...
After hours of searching for comparable cars...it's looking like it could be months more of searching ahead before the right car (used 545 with same options) comes along. Previous car has already been sold...other two cars are manual transmission and therefore wife can't/won't drive them.
Do we take our money and run...and absorb the cost of temporary transportation while searching (possible months) for the right car?
335 is too small for our needs and 550 is too expensive if suitably optioned (compared to what we paid for the 545) and it's not likely the dealer will be willing to make up the difference just to make us happy.
We just want the car fixed...why can't BMW just bite the bullet and replace the engine rather than using it's customers as guinny pigs while they troubleshoot without any real smoking gun pointing them to the source of the problem?
Wouldn't taking our money and running essentailly be encouraging BMW to take the easy way out of a difficult situation...? And even worse, passing on the costs of their service department's incompetence onto our shoulders in the form of a compromised short-term auto purchase out of necessity or the cost of temporary transportation?
Or should we just abandon BMW altogether? My gut tells me that we are just victims of an incompetent service department and clearly there are plenty of happy BMW customers out there...it's just getting very hard to listen to over the grumbling
Any of you have similar experiences? Any of you pushed for engine replacement with any success?
Be patient and order a car.
03-13-2007, 05:29 PM
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My Ride: 2005 545i step, nav, sport, 166 wheels, premium sound, don't need nothin' else.
My 05 545 has been in for repairs, both major and minor, including engine replacement (thanks andy) about ten times in the last two years. Now talking to BMW about a possible replacement vehicle. So many problems they are just too numerous to list. The engine replacement was by far the biggest item of course, but problems continue. The damned thing is, I just love driving the car, warts and all. It's the best handling vehicle I've ever owned. My dealership has been more than accommodating, and I will continue to work with them until a satisfactory resolution is reached.
As for your situation, I agree with the group. Get your deposit back and move on. There's always another deal down the road. JMHO.
As for your situation, I agree with the group. Get your deposit back and move on. There's always another deal down the road. JMHO.
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